500 rwhp on stock shortblock?

[justinschmidt1]

WTF

TonyG on here running 500 rwhp on a stock shortblock...how is that holding up?



Anyone have any theories....

I always felt like the 99-00 PI engines held up a lot better than 02-04...any truth to this?

[Steve03]

it seems the windsors (99-00) last longer when handling power. I have a friend with 2000 GT with a C4 making 445rwhp, that's like 490 thru a 5-spd. I think alot of it's long life is a return style fuel system he installed.

[justinschmidt1]

Yea, ive noticed that...I was actually going to look for a 99-00 motor to swap into my 96 but I didnt feel like putting a motor with 100k in my car.

I got a 03 PI motor from an explorer.....hopefully it will handle some power.

[2kMustangGT500]

Regardless of what people say the Windsor is stronger. The rods are made better, the crank is stouter, the mains are stronger.....they can piss and moan all they want but the truth is the truth.

[justinschmidt1]

Originally Posted by 2kMustangGT500

Regardless of what people say the Windsor is stronger. The rods are made better, the crank is stouter, the mains are stronger.....they can piss and moan all they want but the truth is the truth.

Yea...my 03 alum exploder motor is romeo, isnt it...lol

[Hurstmeister]

Originally Posted by 2kMustangGT500

Regardless of what people say the Windsor is stronger. The rods are made better, the crank is stouter, the mains are stronger.....they can piss and moan all they want but the truth is the truth.

I've seen just as many windsors chuck rods as I have the romeo's. Throw 500 on either one and its not a matter of if,.. its when it does. 500 whp = borrowed time no matter what on stock rods.

I know a guy right now that has been spraying a 200 shot in his 98 GT with PI heads. He makes roughly 275ish NA,.. the rest is spray. Putting almost 500 to the wheels. Has been running the piss out of it for more then a year now. We are both baffled as to why it hasnt chucked parts yet.

So the whole Windsor/Romeo theory,.. 6 bolt/8 bolt bragging rights means little. I dont know of anyone who's ever broken a 6 bolt or 8 bolt crank with out chucking rods first. Both cranks hold well up to 650hp with little trouble. There is no proof one way or the other that either is stronger then the other.

Hurst

[Floordford]

Its all in the tune. You can get a 350hp 4.6 to chuck parts if the tune is sorry.

[Hurstmeister]

Originally Posted by Fastangboi

Its all in the tune. You can get a 350hp 4.6 to chuck parts if the tune is sorry.

To a degree thats true. But once the threshold has been breached,.. particularly in the 425 - 450+ range,.. even a 'safe' tune will prevent very little.

450+hp on a 3400+lb car cutting semi hard 1.6+ 60's,.. the stock rods are going to go. Anyone with any real world experience or that follows those with similar specs know this to be true. I've personally watched this happen time after time. Some cars last longer then others,.. driving style, vehicle weight, type of power adder, and tune are all factors,..agreed. But in the end when the engine is continuously placed on the ragged edge there are always consequences.

Hurst

[justinschmidt1]

So what would you say is a safe number to run?

400?

[MODMUSTANG]

Originally Posted by justinschmidt1

So what would you say is a safe number to run?

400?

400 to the wheels seems to be the consensus. You will still need a stellar tune if you want longevity.

[Erich]

Nice on the explorer motor. Takes some weight off an already lightish car plus add the PI heads. That will be a good setup.
Erihc

[Hurstmeister]

Originally Posted by justinschmidt1

So what would you say is a safe number to run?

400?

The common opinion within the 4.6 community is that 420 - 430 whp is the theoretical safe limit. Beyond that the durability of the rods become a ticking time bomb.

Even at 400 whp the rods can go. High rpm dumps in a full weight car that will dead hook will eventually toss a rod. 10 passes,.. 200 passes? There is no set limit. Its like rolling the dice,.. eventually you crap out.

A friend with a 97 cobra making only 315 - 320ish to the wheels showed me a pic of a bent rod. One more pass and it would have ended his motor.

If you dont spend a lot of time at the track,.. then 400 whp is pretty safe on the street.

Hurst

[justinschmidt1]

Originally Posted by Erich

Nice on the explorer motor. Takes some weight off an already lightish car plus add the PI heads. That will be a good setup.
Erihc

Yea, dropping 70-80 pounds sounds good to me. I was thinking about getting rid of the AC but it gets too damn hot here in the summer.


It should be a nice setup...full pi motor, long tubes, 75 mm tb/plenum and like 10 psi intercooled with the procharger

Im not really sure what it will make as far as power....

Seems like people with 8 psi are making about 350-370 rwhp and 10 psi is like 380-400 rwhp with no intercooler and a vortech

Ive got an intercooler and im sure the long tubes will help out a bit....

Ill be happy with 400 rwhp through the auto on 10 psi

I actually think my flow masters might hinder performance...

[justinschmidt1]

Originally Posted by Hurstmeister

The common opinion within the 4.6 community is that 420 - 430 whp is the theoretical safe limit. Beyond that the durability of the rods become a ticking time bomb.

Even at 400 whp the rods can go. High rpm dumps in a full weight car that will dead hook will eventually toss a rod. 10 passes,.. 200 passes? There is no set limit. Its like rolling the dice,.. eventually you crap out.

A friend with a 97 cobra making only 315 - 320ish to the wheels showed me a pic of a bent rod. One more pass and it would have ended his motor.

If you dont spend a lot of time at the track,.. then 400 whp is pretty safe on the street.

Hurst

Well, 400 rwhp in my auto is probably 420-430 if it was stick.

My car will never see high rpms dumps...maybe 3500-3600 flashes with the converter but thats it.

My car is also probably pretty light. Its got a bit of weight reduction....

gonna have the alum block, its a 248a car so its lighter to begin with.

[Blwn2V]

Originally Posted by justinschmidt1

WTF

TonyG on here running 500 rwhp on a stock shortblock...how is that holding up?



Anyone have any theories....

I always felt like the 99-00 PI engines held up a lot better than 02-04...any truth to this?

Factory freaks happen. The only thing is that the one you hear about making 500rwhp will stick out in your mind while the other 50 or so motors that let go at 440 rwhp or so are just a thing of the past.

[justinschmidt1]

Originally Posted by Blwn2V

Factory freaks happen. The only thing is that the one you hear about making 500rwhp will stick out in your mind while the other 50 or so motors that let go at 440 rwhp or so are just a thing of the past.

Have you seen these motors let go?

I have never heard/seen/or met someone personally who had their motor let go on them.

[Blwn2V]

Originally Posted by justinschmidt1

Have you seen these motors let go?

I have never heard/seen/or met someone personally who had their motor let go on them.

I have seen a few let go, and read about the rest online which I understand you can only believe to a certain extent.

[justinschmidt1]

Im just wondering how common it is...

Is it actually something common in a 400 rwhp car?

[98Coop]

Ive seen a few cars running 380-400 whp for a while now. thats about as high as they'll hold with a decent tune for a long time. you could get 500 out of it but that's a time bomb...

[Erich]

I was surprised to see the GT500 breaking rods at 800 hp in MMandFF. I thought they had better stuff than that in there.
Erich

[dragrace162]

Originally Posted by justinschmidt1

Have you seen these motors let go?

I have never heard/seen/or met someone personally who had their motor let go on them.

dude there is no "safe" limit, if the engine isnt designed to have a poweradder, then all you have to go by is what other people say and have gotten away with.
if you want to make that much power, then just do it with a good tune take care of it. prepare yourself for the worst, if the worst doesnt happen for awhile thats good for you.
you would be a fool to double the power output of a stock engine that is not designed for a poweradder in the first place and assume its gonna be fine and as reliable as stock just because someone else told you it was ok.

[justinschmidt1]

Originally Posted by dragrace162

dude there is no "safe" limit, if the engine isnt designed to have a poweradder, then all you have to go by is what other people say and have gotten away with.
if you want to make that much power, then just do it with a good tune take care of it. prepare yourself for the worst, if the worst doesnt happen for awhile thats good for you.
you would be a fool to double the power output of a stock engine that is not designed for a poweradder in the first place and assume its gonna be fine and as reliable as stock just because someone else told you it was ok.

Im not.....Im calling it quits at 400 rwhp through my auto....more than enough for me.

[nbatchler]

Originally Posted by justinschmidt1

Im not.....Im calling it quits at 400 rwhp through my auto....more than enough for me.

not enough 4 me i am shooting for the stars and so is my engine. LOL

[justinschmidt1]

Originally Posted by nbatchler

not enough 4 me i am shooting for the stars and so is my engine. LOL

Im not so eager to do that since im already putting a new 03 engine in my car....

I need it to last a while

[Erich]

400 rwhp is plenty on the street. And even with that, can you really get it all to hook when you need to? Better to be safe.
Erich

[justinschmidt1]

Originally Posted by Erich

400 rwhp is plenty on the street. And even with that, can you really get it all to hook when you need to? Better to be safe.
Erich

I dont know what I was pulling NPI...couldnt have been any more than 350 rwhp...and died off early, but even that was pretty badass with my 3600 stall setup.


400 rwhp would definitely be enough.....Im gonna find out if I hook.

Believe it or not my goodyear eagle f1's would hook from a 10 mph roll in first with the blower/ stall.


It was pretty crazy

[Speeds8erM-1]

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/V...-vs_154001.htm

That car had a blower on it when he got it years ago at 18k miles, it wasnt making much power for awhile though, then it made 431 or so for 1.5 years. He raced it alot, it had a reman Ford motor in it. Car didnt see any big launches at the track, but it got ran hard often and it took awhile to blow. Then again, two other local 2v's, one with a KB 1.7 and one with a Hellion T62 Turbo didnt last long at allllllllll and neither had near the abuse this Vortech car had.

[mklovell]

I've had mine running for over 2 years with many track runs at 400+rwhp. While I'm not short sighted and realize that running at red-line with this power on a stock short block is always a gamble, it all goes back to a good tune and treating the motor with respect. I figure in drag tune (440rwhp) I am at or over 500hp at the engine.

I rarely run the car to redline which right now I have set to 6500rpm. Usually never on the street and only at the strip. With that kind of power running to red-line on the street is scary enough.

I do believe that longevity is due in part to the initial assembly at the factory. Sometimes you get the sweet motors and sometimes you get the pissed off worker on the line that doesn't give a damn motors. All assembly line work is done with upper and lower quality control limits. Some get the good ones some get the 'just made it' motors.

my 2cents.

[TonyG]

Detonation kill engines. Even if the engine is built with forged rods/pistons, it won't last long if there's detonation. The factory shortblock is a lot stronger than people give it credit for. When I first put the blower on in 1999, everyone was saying that 380 rwhp/8psi was the limit for the stock rods/pistons. A lot of guys were blowing their engines when they went past this, but soon afterwards it became apparent that it was a fuel starvation problem. People started breaking into the 400-420 rwhp range after the dual cobra pumps came out, and they were no longer starving for fuel. Lately, we started getting into the 500's by adding blower cams.

Also keep in mind that with the centrifugal blower, the power gradually and smoothly builds with RPMs. So its not an instant shock, like with the twin screw blowers. Another thing with the centris is that the peak power arrives at the redline, so you're only there momentarily, then you shift.

A lot of guys at this power level are mature (40+ years) and don't beat the piss out of their cars. I do push it to the limit on the dragstrip: 6k clutch drop launches on 28" slicks, near-powershifts at 6200-6300 rpms. But before and after that, the car gets a cool down and a lot of TLC. Also, I use race gas or a race/pump mixture on the dragstrip for piece of mind. Between trips to the track, the car is babied; fresh plugs, 1500 mile oil changes, etc.

I do have some weight reduction to reduce the load on the engine, tubular k, front skinnies, lightweight seats, swaybar. Probably nearly 150 lbs in weight reduction.

But I know...even with all that there's a limit. If/when the motor goes, I'll get a built shortblock and put on a bigger blower, cams, etc. But the stock motor's been holding up. It has about 220 passes at the 450 rwhp level, and about 10 passes since I hit 500+ a few months ago. I'm not losing any oil, and I'm getting 21-22 mpg on the highway.

[justinschmidt1]

Im trying to keep mine alive as long as possible

Im probably going to run upper 300s 400 flat rwhp through my auto


If I do go to the track Im going to be running 104 octane.


Is a singla 255 lph walbro pump good enough?

[mklovell]

I'm running a 255lph pump with 42lb injectors and it will only tolerate short bursts over 6000rpm. You really have to watch your fuel pressure. As well as never running below a 1/4 tank. As mentioned above one of the number one killers is fuel starvation.

In my setup I really need to step up to a dual pump Cobra tank or an in-line pump like a BBK to facilitate.