5.4 N/A cobra project

[Boss 330]

As promised here is the new thread for the 5.4 4V cobra.The old thread that was lost in the famous crash was over 6500 views.I have recieved lots of mail seeking info on the project.I will post new pictures soon.So here are the basics.........
97 cobra
5.4 4V navigator based engine
origional dyno at upr.. 398 rwhp 360 tq
T-56 trans
4.30 gears

the engine now has about 3000 mi and has averaged 21 mpg (hiway). after two trips to speedworld has run 12.20 115.55 with lots of spin in top of first,second gear.The car was a big hit at the ford power festival at moroso raceway,Mike Johnson of 5-0 magazine shot the car and it will be featured in a upcoming issue..Al

[willrace4food]

Al thanks, but could you be alittle more specific. I'd like the info on the fuel system, and PCM. If you would be so kind as to go over your build from oil pan to intake that would be great. Also could you tell me more about the custom work for things like P/P the heads, and I think you said something about the intake being custom. I really think this is what I want to do with my car. Also, if it's possible to list prices and/or guesses of what some things might cost that would be great.

[Boss 330]

Fuel system..255 intank pump,42# injectors,80mm Pro m,cobra ecmW/chip tuning by UPR,Intake manifold built by me.
Ported 2001 navigator 4/V heads
The swap added 100# to car

[willrace4food]

So other than the intake, nothing was too radical to deal with? How many hours are invested in the project so far? Thanks for your time Al. L8R

[Boss 330]

The intake manifold is the most difficult part of the swap,and..the valve covers do not come off with the engine in the car...Al

[4.6GT]

Did you replace anything in the Navigator shortblock or is it stock still? Any compression ratio #'s?

[Boss 330]

The 5.4 has all of the problems the 4.6 does,..cast pistons that look like they came out of a lawnmower and one of the biggest jokes ever to come from a manufacturer..Powder metal connecting rods! So ..just like a 4.6.Billet rods,custom forged pistons,head and main studs are a must.Compression ratio would depend on the gas you plan to run..Al

[mkoesel]

Al, thanks for restarting the thread. Some more questions
for you (if you don't mind):

First, build questions:

- What brand rods are you using?
- What brand pistons are you using?
- Did you keep the Navigator cams, or use Cobra?
- Are your cams stock, or reground, or other?
- What about valves, springs, etc?
- Did you keep the Navigator heads, or use Cobra?
- Was your P&P an agressive one, or just to smooth things
out. I.e, did you reshape the ports, combustions chambers
a lot, or not?
- How many #'s are your injectors?
- How big is your TB/MAF?
- What else is non-stock on the long-block, besides intake and
what brands are you using for those non-stock parts?
- What other non-stock parts are you using in the complete
motor? Such as typical boltons (CAI, pulleys, etc...)? What
type of exhaust are you using? What cat-back?
- What other changes were required to make it work in the
car (suspension, wiring, engine compartment, motor mounts)?

Second the intangibles:

- How much peak RWHP/RWTQ do you make?
- What is the compression ratio on your motor? Have you ever
blown a head gasket? How high would you estimate it could
take and still be safe/reliable?
- What is the redline RPM of your motor?
- What is the estimated $$ (just a rough figure) you have in
your motor?
- Do you regret not building a blown 4.6L and/or Windsor motor
instead?

Third, the intake issue:
- Do you feel there is any point in pursuing the Navigator (lower
only!), Cobra (spliced), or Continental (spliced) intakes?
- How much time/$$$ did it take to fab your intake?

Finally, do you have pics/notes or any other info about your
motor that you could share?

Thanks a TON for whatever info you can give us!

[mkoesel]

TTT

Okay Boss, maybe you could just answer a couple of my (our)
questions? Don't want to scare ya off... just eager to learn and
get the scoop, thass all.

Cheers

[Boss 330]

The 99 engine bay is the same size as 96 -98 cars,
no problem removing spark plugs..same as cobra
valve covers are not coming off,I don't see this as a big deal.If there is a problem under a valve cover the engine must come out anyway.

Base engine..2000 navigator dohc.
Manley billet rods.
custom je pistons.
reground navigator cams..custom profile.
Valves..I made them from ferrea blanks.
Motorcycle springs and titanium retainers.
extensively ported heads.
42# UPR injectors
Stock cobra throttle body.80mm pro m mass air.
The navigator had 8 rib damper and tensioner,I converted the rest(ac,ps,alt to 8 rib.
Stock cobra exh.manifolds,custom X and stock cobra cat back(real quiet) Made the same power as three chamber flomasters(too loud)
It bolts right up to the stock mounts.
No changes to chassis.
**CONTAINS NO CANADIAN AFTERMARKET PARTS**

With only 400 mi on eng.It made 398 rwhp at 7000 and was still climbing.With 93 octane we had to retard the timing 5 degrees and run a rich a/f to keep it from detonating,Now With four gallons of 110 cam 2 in the tank and timing up 6 degrees it picked up a bunch ,I want a rematch with the dyno soon.
I try to keep it under 7000,It's been 7500 a few times.The piston speed at that rpm would make you puke!

Cost..About $12,000 parts only, as far as labor..I have to give that a lot of thought,Since i did the work..What do i charge myself?

Do i regret not building a windsor,Or a blown 4.6...The only reason i started playing with mustangs is because of the 4V engines,I have been racing and winning for years with 4V prostock bikes,The technology makes 2V stuff seem like stone age stuff,I like N/A engines,The 5.4 looked like the answer..cross bolted mains.nice forged crank,big stroke(torque)4V heads(low stress valve train,High rpm potential..It turned out better than i could hope for..It is very rev happy,yet you can pull it down to 1200 in fourth and pull away with out a down shift.,around 5200 it hits like a 125 shot.

Intake manifold It is a national passtime trying to modify 4.6 cobra manifolds to improve them..If the cobra manifold can't feed a 4.6 Why would you think it can support a engine with 50 more cubic inches?There was no alternative but to build a manifold to complement the rest of the package.

Hope to post new pics soon..Al

[willrace4food]

Al, I have one more for ya. The intake, did you fab it out of sheet metal? Could a shop replicate your results? Thanks for your time.

[Streetracer]

I have a 5.4L DOHC car with an intake from Sean Hyland. It is basically a 4.6L Cobra intake that has been cut in half, widened an inch (or so), and rewelded/painted. It is not the greatest, but I didn't have too many options. With ported heads and custom ground cams, the car made 380 rwhp at 6750 (forgot to change the MSD high RPM limit). Torque was around 356 ft/lb. It has stock compression and 30 degrees of timing at WOT. It is controlled with a Speed-Pro computer + wideband O2. The car went 12.0@117 on motor, at a heavy 3650 lbs and 100+ degree temps (104 to be exact). With a 75 shot, it went 11.30@121.5 grinding fourth and having to shift it back into gear (TKO does not like high RPM), 7.2 1/8 mile and 1.69 60'. That was the only halfway clean pass I got. I swapped out the 42lb/hr injectors and have 83's in there to provide the fuel for a 200hp direct-port (through the IMRCs) nitrous system. All I'm waiting on now, is a tune from Randy@TBP

Question for Al, what kind of compression are you running, and how much timing? Email me if you'd like. Thanks!

[mkoesel]

Thanks (both of you) for posting with your info.

I don't suppose either of you'd would know the lift and duration
of your cams... (?)

Steetracer, are you running 96-98 Cobra heads, 99+ Cobra heads
or Navigator heads? What about cams?

[Streetracer]

mkoesel, I am using '96-98 Cobra heads, '97 Cobra heads to be specific, with a (obviously)'97 Cobra intake. The intake has not been ported and is pretty crappy. It's just a stock one, cut in half and widened. The cams are custom Hyland grinds. A friend of mine actually did the assembly of the motor, and I do not have the cam specs. I could find out, but I'd hafta pull the motor/valve covers. It has Cunningham billet rods and Wiseco forged pistons.

[mkoesel]

Streetracer, thanks for the head info. It looks like everyone is
using pre-99 heads or Navigator heads for this application. I
suppose if pre-99 Navigator heads existed, people would be
using those too.

BTW, are you using stock Cobra valves, retainers, etc. ?

iron281,

I've seen pics of a stang with that setup. The motor was at
least a foot higher than the engine compartment. The pics
showed the car with the hood off. I have no idea what he used
for a hood, but the visibility would be almost zero with that
setup. With 380 hp, 450 lb-ft of torque at the flywheel, the setup
(in stock form anyway) is probably not worth it. You could
build an N/A DOHC with comparable power (as streetracer and
Boss have proven), and then later if you want even more you
could add a Vortech and have a Henessy Viper killer -- and you'd
still be able to see where you are driving.

[Boss 330]

I'm back..It has been a great week..First my pc died..Went to speed world wed. night first pass 12.36 114.50 lots of spin second pass spun real bad at top of low gear and i shut it off..Third pass left at 1500 and bogged a little ..ran 12.18 116.90 and when i turned off the track blew a brand new eaton posi out the back! So red labled parts and friday built a new rear end(C-locker this time) finished fri evening.On the way home from the shop crusing down the off ramp a down shifted from sixth to fifth(at about 50) the trans made a big bang and is locked in fifth gear! I limped home and sat. i swapped back to a T-45./ I think i like prostock bikes again..Al

[Hocke0233]

I live in orlando would be more than happy to pick it up for you and even give you My gt even through in a Katana 600 (just incase you wanted to stick to bikes)

You got any picts?

Nice #'s though

[Boss 330]

Here's a pic. (By Mike Johnson, 5.0 Magazine.

[Boss 330]

Here is another one..

[Boss 330]

[mkoesel]

Al, thanks a bunch for posting the pics. I'm anxious to see
more of them. You setup looks sweet.

That intake cover, that's off a 96-98 Cobra intake, right? Just
curious -- why did you use the 96-98 cover? Was it easier to
design your intake around that part, rather than the 99+ intake
cover?

[mkoesel]

BTW, sorry to hear about the trans problems, Al.

Do you think you were putting too much power through it,
or was it just because you drove it hard at the track?

[ALLNTRL]

Originally posted by mkoesel


That intake cover, that's off a 96-98 Cobra intake, right?

I believe that the upper cover is off of the new HCI intake and the lower is what Boss 330 custom made. Boss 330 please corect me if I'm wrong. Sorry about your problems with the car. It is one VERY CLEAN SWAP! Nice job!

[Boss 330]

The intake cover is a HCI piece,It is longer and wider than a cobra cover.I used a cobra cover on the first 5.4 car I,ll post a pic of it,Excuse the mess it was a work in progress at the time the pic was taken...Al

[Boss 330]

Bob cosby is the king of scrap t-45's..He broke four or five last season.I have had no problems but i don't powershift.I quess if you want it to last ..it might...Al

[gr8_96gt]

Originally posted by Boss 330
Bob cosby is the king of scrap t-45's..He broke four or five last season.I have had no problems but i don't powershift.I quess if you want it to last ..it might...Al

I dont power shift my little ole gt, just drive it hard, its fun. But fun has its price. The t-45 its smooth quiet and last threw a fair amout of abuse. But we will see what happens with this popping out of second gear think

[89twistyCpe]

Al, awesome job on the swap... looks facotry. I am starting a project with a Nav. 5.4L. I too am using the T-56...
Although mine will not be a drag strip animal.... thats what the big block car is for.. LOL

Questions:

1.) which vintage/model EEC-V harnesss did you use? 4.6? 5.4? Nav, F-150?

2.) Your UPR Chip did that address the Nav. electric OD trans to manual trans driveability issues?

3.) was your intake work for an installation height issue or purely performance concern?

4.) You rod & piston choices... again purely for max performance or just in case? I know there are guys out there safely running 6-9 lbs of Kenne Bell boost on the Nav's with no longterm (but not drag strip) use.

5.) thoughts on the basically stock Nav. engine with max street fun.. in terms of chip programing... or should I cam this thing before setting her in?

Thanks,

Rob Weeks
St. Louis, Mo
'89 Coupe (wifes) 285/40/17's rear 255/40/17's front
'78 Cobra II/Monroe Handler 5.4L Project car
'78 King Cobra 5.0L SEFI T-5

[Bob Cosby]

Bob cosby is the king of scrap t-45's..He broke four or five last season.I have had no problems but i don't powershift.I quess if you want it to last ..it might...Al

LOL. You know...if I could keep an input shaft in my car, I'd have no problems running the T45 forever and ever amen. I trashed a synchro at the NMRA Reading Race after ~50 passes - all powershifting, as I know no other way to go down the track. Other than that, the only problem has been breaking those damn input shafts.

They are at TTC now, and I'm hoping that they can come up with something that will help me out. I'd love to get some sort of stronger input shaft, and then continue to run the T45. It is a light, smooth tranny.

[gr8_96gt]

Originally posted by Bob Cosby


LOL. You know...if I could keep an input shaft in my car, I'd have no problems running the T45 forever and ever amen. I trashed a synchro at the NMRA Reading Race after ~50 passes - all powershifting, as I know no other way to go down the track. Other than that, the only problem has been breaking those damn input shafts.

They are at TTC now, and I'm hoping that they can come up with something that will help me out. I'd love to get some sort of stronger input shaft, and then continue to run the T45. It is a light, smooth tranny.

agreed, must be my driving

[Boss 330]

1.) which vintage/model EEC-V harnesss did you use? 4.6? 5.4? Nav, F-150?

97 Cobra harness.

2.) Your UPR Chip did that address the Nav. electric OD trans to manual trans driveability issues?

Not an issue using Cobra ECM.

3.) was your intake work for an installation height issue or purely performance concern?

Yes ....to both questions.

4.) You rod & piston choices... again purely for max performance or just in case? I know there are guys out there safely running 6-9 lbs of Kenne Bell boost on the Nav's with no longterm (but not drag strip) use.

I built this as an N/A engine, that means lots of rpm to make power. The piston speed at 7000rpm is around 4900 ft per min, that means premium parts in the rotating assembly.

5.) thoughts on the basically stock Nav. engine with max street fun.. in terms of chip programing... or should I cam this thing before setting her in?

The answer to that would depend on whether you plan to use a blower or N/A. ...Al

[Boss 330]

1.) am I correct in assuming the 4.6 DOHC & 5.4 DOHC have the same firing order? I am a 5.0L guy so far... seems elementary I know.

The firing order is the same.

2.) On a Blower application, cams will be less critical?

For a mild blower app. the stock cams will be fine.

3.) do you have any resources that give overall dimensions of the 5.4.... specifically deck height, overall height etc?

I dont have the specifics on hand, but i remember my 5.4 is 2.5'' wider and 1.5''taller than a cobra 4.6

4.) Does the SHM T-56 kit include a flywheel? If not what are you using? Clutch?

I bought my T-56 stuff from D+D(Great service.If you deal with the canadian bandit your parts will be delivered wrapped in a condom.

5.) how much of a driveshaft length change did you encounter? I assume it had to be shortened?

D+D supplied a custom aluminium shaft(Real Nice) that is a little shorter.

6.) How much do you feel your intake mods were worth? (hp wise)

Cant say..The intake is part of the whole package,Porting,Cams,Compression ratio...Al

[mkoesel]

Al, do you have any pics of the intake with the cover off?
Would you be willing to provide us more details about the
intake?

[Boss 330]

Al, do you have any pics of the intake with the cover off?

No Pics

Would you be willing to provide us more details about the intake

I have cast runners 6" long It really pushes the torque peak up high(5400)and hp peak past 7000.I feel it could use a runner about 8-10'' long .The Cobra R has a length of 13'' That is too long(Cobra R's make peak hp around 5400 Ford wanted to make mid range power to accelerate off a corner well.Anyway..i am making changes everyday and the intake is one area still under development...Al

[Boss 330]

Word from D+D is my T-56 had a broken fifth fork.Don walsh said this is a first,and really strange because it is a steel fork.Hard to believe i could break it downshifting from6-5 ot 50 mph. Waiting on word from tremec to see what the rep. has to say...Al

[gr8_96gt]

do you think they will cover it?