JScott1176 -2V 5.4

[Floordford]

Hey jscott1176,

Im thinking along the same lines as you did. Doing a PI swap onto a 5.4. I was wanting to know details like overall cost of the swap. Little hick-ups no one talks about on the Mustang forums. And how is the drivebility with those XE270s. Did you need any other upgrades to make it work like to the fuel system.

Im really hoping i can modify my long tubes to work. I have a 2000 gt with a K&N FIPK2, Accufab 75mm, huge stock ported plenum, Stage 2 heads, Pypes long tubes, 2 1/2" o/r/h to Flows. Im probably going to go with the Hardball'r intake when i do the swap. Ive heard the adapter plates hurt flow.

That is pretty much it. Ive been doing a massive amount of research before i dedicate any money to this. From what ive heard the install is a little tight but once its done its a torque monster.

Thanks,
Robert T

[Cougarstang]

I want to do this swap too but can't seem to find a decent 5.4 locally for a reasonable price.

[johnr2001gt]

I have done the swap and really dont think its worth it for all the hassle just doing 4.62v to 5.4 2v. its a really tight around the heater core hook up and other areas. its just a pain for so little gain. and yes the adapter plates suck

[Floordford]

Well the reason i was thinking of doing the Hardball'r intake is because people have been saying it makes great power and its portable. It also keeps me from having hood clearance issues. So the cost of a new painted hood and still having a choked up manifold verses a good flowing performance manifold is well worth the money spent. Plus im going to be doing ported PI heads on a NPI 5.4. That has to make great gains. And a good nitrous platform.

Im still doing research on the weak points of a 5.4. Im hoping they are the same as the 4.6. weak rods and hyper-pathetic pistons.

[Cougarstang]

Originally Posted by johnr2001gt

I have done the swap and really dont think its worth it for all the hassle just doing 4.62v to 5.4 2v. its a really tight around the heater core hook up and other areas. its just a pain for so little gain. and yes the adapter plates suck

That's interesting. Everyone seems to be all about the swap nowadays for its ease. To me, low cost + a weekend of time for 60 ft lbs of torque seems reasonable.

[Floordford]

And its better than building a stroker. Basically its dropping in a Ford built stroker from a slavage yard.

[jscott1176]

Alright... I'm one of many that have done this swap now and I will try to give as many answers as I can... (along with some pictures)

Engine:
I found a 1997 NPI 5.4 with a lot of miles on craigslist for $400. I tore it down, cleaned it all up and installed new bearings & rings.




I picked up a new set of head bolts and head gaskets to install the heads. I re-used the PI heads from my 4.6, and installed Comp Cams XE270-AH, Comp springs, and adjustable cam gears. I degreed them in to ensure they were balanced and straight-up.

I then bolted up my existing flywheel & clutch (King Cobra) that I had on the 4.6, bolted up the trans, and it slid right back in. All the electrical connectors went right back in place and everything was looking good.

Intake: I did this swap last winter (2007) so the HPS intake was not available yet, so I used adapter plates with my stock PI intake. I also reused the stock upper elbow, TB, and intake tube.
Exhaust: I am still using the stock manifolds and had to make the x pipe wider to fit. As far as aftermarket solutions to the manifolds, the FRPP shorties are the only ones that have shown to fit & work. The BBK equal-length shorties interfere with the steering shaft. None of the aftermarket long tubes fit. They need serious rework to make them work. It's been tried many times without much success. Right now the only solution is to have a custom set made for you.
Fuel: I also originally used the stock 19# injectors so I would not have to mess with the tune much to get it to run.
I made some very small tweaks to the stock tune to get it to run... I changed the displacement scalar to 330 from 281, & increased the idle to 900.
Sure enough, it fired right up on the first shot. VIDEO
After messing with the tune some I had it running pretty decently and I took it to the dyno to get some baseline numbers. This is what I got:


I ran the car all last summer, attending 4 track day events and the engine proved to be quite strong. My fuel mileage was the only thing I was not too happy with. Around town I would only see 12-13 MPG's and the highway yielded a best of 18.5 MPG. I also had to swap to larger injectors (24#) because the 19's were going static above 4500 RPM and it was going lean near redline.

Of course not being entirely satisfied, this winter I attacked the intake side of the engine. HPS released their new intake manifold, so I picked that up. I also upgraded to the trickflow upper elbow and a 75mm TB off ebay. Finally I went with a BBK Cold air intake. I dont have any updated pictures yet, but will have them soon. Right away I noticed a big difference in driveability, throttle response was 1000x better, and the engine is now making a bunch more power above 4000 RPM. This is mostly due to the shorter runner length of the new intake and the TB/elbow. I have yet to go back to the dyno for some "after" numbers but I am hopeful to see 285-290 rwhp & 340 rwtq. What surprised me the most was that with not much change to the tune, my highway fuel mileage was greatly improved and I am now seeing 23 MPG. This tells me how inefficient the adapter plates were making it run, mostly because the fuel was being sprayed on the side walls of the runners in the plates.

All that is the good side for this swap... onto some of the down sides:
The stock rotating assembly: All the NPI engines use a forged crank, which has been proven very strong in race engines spinning 8800+ RPM and making 1200+ hp. The connecting rods are the same sintered powdered metal rods the 4.6 used, just longer. The 5.4 has a 4.1" stroke, so the rods see a lot of side loading, especially at higher RPMs. These are the major weak-link to the system. They can however handle some decent power as they are the same rods used in the Lightning engines. Just dont plan on spinning the engine past 6000 RPM. The pistons are the exact same as the ones used in the 4.6... the hyperutectic castings. We all know the limitations of those.

[r3dn3ck]

+1 to that.

I had the same basic experience as jscott. Took a 2000 expedition motor with a bad rod bearing, tore it down, had new bearings, ARP fasteners and forged rods and pistons slapped in on a .020 over bore. Took some mildly (very mildly) touched up heads and a set of xe270 cams to it, added an HPS intake and a set of custom longtubes and viola. 300rwhp and 332tq (with a flat tq curve almost identical to jscott's. The peak tq is at 4000rpm and peak hp comes in closer to 5350rpm now (was 5000 before the new intake). My longer power band is due probably to my longtube headers (which sound fuggin awesome!)

The car has 3.55 gears in it and is a TON of fun to drive. It launches really hard and roasts the hides at any suggestion.

The hell of it is, I had a set of MUCH better ported heads and I sold them like an idiot. The thing would have made 30-40hp more with the ported heads. I'm going to put the TFS heads on it if I keep it anyway though, so I ain't trippin'.

The HPS intake improved my mileage and the drivability of the car greatly. The adapter plates required a lot more fuel in the tune to idle properly and then always returned poor mileage. Just the other day when I got the car smogged I got about 21mpg in mixed driving. It takes so little throttle to make it go you just don't find yourself in the gas as deep nearly as often, unless you're having fun.

EDIT: Put in forged rods. Save yourself some hassle down the road.

[Floordford]

Wow, you guys are a huge help. You have no idea. Im so glad i didnt do this blind back in 2004-2005. I have a 3.55 running gear right now and have the option to go 3.73 or 4.10 for close to nothing. Would you guys recommend a certain gear with a 4R70W tranny. I also have a 3500 stall and a stock 2000 converter. Now looking at the torque curve i see that if i flashed it i would be well past my power. So what would be a good stall speed for this set up. Like 2,4-2,600?

I do want to run the 270 cam with all this. And another thing i was thinking is that if im changing out the pistons to forged should i stay with a 13cc or get a little greedy with maybe a 10cc. Could i get PTV issues?

And is there any brands of rods that you sway towards? Ive never had to buy rods so im in the dark there. I know i could blow alot of money in that area and not be much better than someone else. If the engine can handle 550hp/550 ft lbs i would be happy all day long. Even though im not going to touch that power for a long time.

Also even if i stay 13cc with PI heads i want to address the spark plug blow out issue. I would think with a little higher compression that that issue would rear it ugly little head easier.

[streetkred]

Thank god for this thread! and the bible thread on the other board

Well so Far I have the Block torn apart.

I take it I will need

1.New bearing set
2.Re ring kit
3. Head changing kit
4. gasket set

Where are you guys ordering your parts from and how much should I look to spend for this stuff?

[Cougarstang]

Good info, guys,

What kinda gas mileage do you think you'd see with stock pi cams, the hps intake, and a good tune?

[Floordford]

I thought about doing that. Just running stock cams. But if you want my take, and it might be wrong, i would think after the swap the engine bay might be a little too tight to comfortably manage valve covers on and off.

But also JScott like i mentioned in my forst post, how do the 270s drive? I guess then im asking how the whole set up feels as a street car.

[jscott1176]

The 270's are just fine, but then again I have a manual trans. With an automatic, you may want a little higher stall converter. I have the idle set at 800, but i do not need to worry about idle-in-gear setting. They really dont like anything below 750, so that would have to change a little in your tune. They do have a bit of a choppy sound, but the nature of the 5.4 with the long stroke, it calms it down a bit. Overall driveability of the 5.4 with those cams is great though... the engine really comes alive above 3.5k and is done at about 5500... that would be perfect for an auto car with 3.73's at most.

[Floordford]

If you had to guess what the total cost was, what would you say? My guess is it that its around $2000

[jscott1176]

That is probably about right with cams, intake, and tune.

[r3dn3ck]

The dish size you want will vary from brand to brand and model to model. You'll want to shop for your compression ratio of choice. I used probe slugs with -4.5cc dishes for ~10.5:1 which is totally fine even with California's 91 octane weak sauce. The idle on my 270's is very easy to deal with but certainly noticeable.

I run 3.55's on a manual but if I had an auto I might just go for the 3.73's.

Cam covers are a snug fit for sure but they can come off with the motor in the car with only a little fuss.

[Floordford]

So is there a way to figure out a close comp ratio. I dont have those nitty gritty measurements you need for those compression calculators. R3d, what heads are you running? And thats good to know about the cam covers. Now i dont have to have this project on a stand while i pony up the exrta cash for cams and CGs.

Im really trying to figure out as much as i can before i spend. Once i have my direction the project is as good as done so i am very methodical with my info intake.

Also is there a thread lodged in one of these forums that can help me decide on a cam. Im thinking that im going to need a slightly bigger cam than a 4.6 but if i want to run a 13cc piston or a flat top i know that PTV stuff will be an issue.

[BlackSunshine02]

Originally Posted by Fastangboi

So is there a way to figure out a close comp ratio. I dont have those nitty gritty measurements you need for those compression calculators. R3d, what heads are you running? And thats good to know about the cam covers. Now i dont have to have this project on a stand while i pony up the exrta cash for cams and CGs.

Im really trying to figure out as much as i can before i spend. Once i have my direction the project is as good as done so i am very methodical with my info intake.

Also is there a thread lodged in one of these forums that can help me decide on a cam. Im thinking that im going to need a slightly bigger cam than a 4.6 but if i want to run a 13cc piston or a flat top i know that PTV stuff will be an issue.

Try Hytech cams there stage 2 cams have no PTV issues. That is what I'm looking at for my 04 F150 5.4 PI engine.

[r3dn3ck]

Using my trusty calcumuhlator for PI heads:
flat top 11.2:1
-4.5cc 10.5:1
-9cc 9.9:1
-13cc 9.5:1
-18cc 9:1
-21cc 8.8:1

You can use just about any cam under the sun on the 5.4's without worrying much about PTV. The piston sits .1" down the hole at TDC unlike the 4.6 which sits at .008 below the deck. That extra room gives you a LOT more in the way of cam options. The 5.4 seems to run a little mellow-er with a given cam than the 4.6 does.

Call up Hi-Tech and have them custom spec a set for you or grab a set of their stage 2 or stage 3's.

[Floordford]

this site is showing different comp. ratios. not trying to argue.
http://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums...s-c-r-etc.html

2nd post
PI 1999-9.30:1
PI 2000-9.74:1

The only reason i bring it up is because i thought that PI heads with a NPI bottom, or 13cc pistons, had a higher compression. And if you were just running a calculator then its like you are hitting the same inconsistancy that i was hitting. My final results were off. It would almost be better to start a swap sticky and have guys do a compression test and post their results with different head and piston combos. Because from actual pressure numbers you could get a more accurate idea. just one guys thoughts

[jscott1176]

Originally Posted by Fastangboi

[COLOR="Blue"]Also is there a thread lodged in one of these forums that can help me decide on a cam. Im thinking that im going to need a slightly bigger cam than a 4.6 but if i want to run a 13cc piston or a flat top i know that PTV stuff will be an issue.

Like it has already been stated, there are no PTV issues to speak of with the 5.4 setup. The piston sits down in the bore well out of the way of the valves. I really like the Comp 270 cam I am using, the idle lope is noticable, but not wild. The 278 would also work real well. If you are trying to gauge how well a particular cam will work on the 5.4 just look at the results on the 4.6... take those peaks and shift them down the rev band 800-1000 RPM and that is where your new peaks will occur. The more wild the cam profile, the more CR it will "want" to make the best power. Even with a flat-top piston @ 11:1 CR you should be able to tune it on premium fuel without a problem.

[Floordford]

I do appreciate the help from both you guys. It might seem like im asking dumb questions but i really want to be thorough. And i do look foreward to those new dyno numbers JScott.

[jscott1176]

Originally Posted by Fastangboi

this site is showing different comp. ratios. not trying to argue.
http://www.moddedmustangs.com/forums...s-c-r-etc.html

2nd post
PI 1999-9.30:1
PI 2000-9.74:1

The only reason i bring it up is because i thought that PI heads with a NPI bottom, or 13cc pistons, had a higher compression. And if you were just running a calculator then its like you are hitting the same inconsistancy that i was hitting. My final results were off. It would almost be better to start a swap sticky and have guys do a compression test and post their results with different head and piston combos. Because from actual pressure numbers you could get a more accurate idea. just one guys thoughts

The Sean Hyland book has this oulined, when I get home tonight, I will post up the CR's they have listed.

[jscott1176]

Originally Posted by Fastangboi

I do look foreward to those new dyno numbers JScott.

Me too
I am planning on going to one of the local shop's open house at the end of the month for a couple runs.

[Floordford]

DId you run a ballpark tune before you got it tuned or did you trailer it in to a dyno? Im running a SCT Xcal2 and i see you run a tweecer, think i should swap over or is mine fine? I dont have an adjustment for displacement change.

[jscott1176]

I was able to do most of my tuning in the driveway. The Tweecer allows me to change anything in the tune. I put in a base tune changing the displacement scalar, and bumped the idle for the initial start. Later on I switched to 24# injectors and had to change the scalars in the tune for them. I then tweaked the MAF transfer function to reflect the airflow the sensor is now seeing because of the CAI and intake manifold changes. Some other changes that were necessary within the tune were because of the cams. I had to play with the IAC valve table to allow more air in around idle, I also played with the timing tables to allow me to run premium fuel. Most of this was done using a WB O2 sensor and data-logging with the tweecer driving on real roads. I'm sure there is more power in there with some dedicated dyno time to show the effects of the little changes, but I am happy for now.

[Slither]

From my experience stock high comp 5.4 2v > HCI low comp 2v. I made like 280/340 to the tires on the stock 4.6 tune. With a decent tune I think she woudl have put out around 300/360. I used navi pistons(true flattop). Made 380/495 on a 75 shot. Eventually had it jetted to the tune of 525(or 550)hp and 725rwtq all on stock parts.

So far I havnt seen where the hardballr or longtubes help. I think a set of shorties with larger primarys would make the same power. The only intake I can recommend is the Reichard Racing(or similar). Going off memory here so the power numbers could be +/-10 or so but you get the idea. I made as much power with all stock parts as most have with HCI. These cars need compression!

[Floordford]

Yeah id like to see a fat flowing shorty header for the 5.4. 1.75 w/ 3" wonder how that would do.

[BlackSunshine02]

I have learned so damn much about this wap....WoW!!! I know I now want a -4.5 Semi dished piston...10.5:1 comp is what I was hoping for.

[jscott1176]

According to the Sean Hyland book, here are the CR calculations for a standard bore 5.4 2V setup:

DISH---PI_HD--NPI_HD--4V_HD
0CC----11.01----9.83---9.72---(Stock 4V Piston)
11CC----9.61----8.72---8.64---(Stock 2V NPI piston)
17CC----9.00----8.23---8.15---(Stock 2V PI piston)
23CC----8.47----7.79---7.72---(Stock 03 Cobra Piston)

So in the case of r3dneck's setup... he is running a flat-top piston on a shortblock that has been bored 0.030" over and PI heads, his CR is shown as 11.13:1 on the table

[Floordford]

11.01:1 sounds good to me.

[Slither]

Mine sat right at 11.2:1 compression and I had no issues with pumpgas for anyone curious. Id like to see a high compression setup like I had with custom cams, a RR intake and a set of ported heads. I might end up doing that to see if I could break 425/450 NA. I think it could be attainable without too much trouble

[96blackgt54]

Dang.......32 replys! Where have I been.............Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I did the swap and had only the help of an engine hoist and car lift.

If my memory recalls correct, I think their is a forum with about 100,000,000,000,000,000,0000,000,000,000,000,000.. ........post.

Does someone know the link to that site?

My plans are to have the most fun car I built!

[r3dn3ck]

I'm actually running a 4.5cc dish on a .020 overbore for 10.5:1. Those CR's are approximate in any case.

The headers were worth a dyno proven 20hp and zero tq. The 5.4 Hardball'r intake with shorty headers (on what turned out to be basically stock heads) was worth a dyno proven 10hp/10tq over and above my old modded 4.6 Hardball'r and adapter plates.

Compression is definitely good! I'd do flat tops if I had it to do again though.

Comp cams probably aren't the best choice. Hitech probably are a better option.

The forum 96blackgt54 speaks of and the specific thread can be found here: http://mustangboards.com/modular-4-6...opine-229.html
No sense in starting from the beginning if you have questions, post them up. We're used to answering the same question over and over again. It's caused actual research and development to happen and we're making progress at the grassroots level thanks to guys like slither and jscott and a few others on MB.

[BlackSunshine02]

Originally Posted by Fastangboi

11.01:1 sounds good to me.

I don't know I guess I will ask AL P. of Boss 330 racing what he suggests. But I am thinking -4.5cc or 0cc 10.5-11.0 is perfect with a 125 shot of nitrous.