What happens when your roll bar fails...

[SCCA_Stang]

Originally Posted by fowler86gt

http://www.sportscarmarket.com/content/carrera

very interesting... why the hell the hassle for the waivers if the courts can simply reverse the waivers effectiveness?

seriously... anyone who goes to a race track signs a waiver saying that they understand that racing is inherently dangerous and gets in a car anyway should not have the right to sue for injuries and the families should not be able to sue for death. Period... they signed that right away. IMHO, case closed.

and if something happens to me at my next event (god forbid), someone remember this thread and feel free to sling it in my face if I try to say anything different then.

[BULLITT1992]

its no different than when you go to a shop or valet your car and they say not liable for damages.

[carrew]

Look how it flipped and landed on its roof, which was a lot more pressure then a roll. I have seen many racecars with the same feat of pushing a bar thru the pan. On mine I actually welded a bar from the bottom plate under the car to the subframe connectors and ran one from the the mid pad to the front pad to tie in the bar under the car.

[black'vert]

that goofy wing survived and the cage did not? WTF???

It is unfortunate that they chose to take a shortcut in the most important area of a track car.....

[carrew]

It doesn't take too much to make 650 with a GT500 motor. So I don't think the mods were that crazy. There are tons of mustang running full griggs and MM kits without a bar. Sheit happens and you learn from it.

[Jack Hidley]

The MM 4-point rollbars for Fox and SN95 Mustangs are designed to be NHRA legal for drag racing. NHRA requires the use of 6" x 6" footer and backer plates that are 1/8" thick for all four mounting points. That is what we use.

The footer plates that bolt to the rear inner fenders are very strong since they are curved in two directions. This curvature puts the footer, backer and inner fender into a degree of compression and reduces the amount of shear and bending forces. This joint is really strong.

The main hoop attaches to the floorpan as close to the rear set bulkhead as possible. It really isn't possible to make a bolt in main hoop that attaches with a 6" x 6" footer plate to the top of the rear seat bulkhead. The footer and backer plates would be very difficult to fabricate. The main hoop would be difficult to install since you would need to remove the mufflers from the car and drill holes into two different planes. I suspect there would be a lot of fitment problems due to variations in the shape of the top of the seat bulkhead. The rear seat cushion would become very difficult to reinstall making the car much louder inside.

If you do want to use the 4-point rollbar for HPDE use, any capable chassis shop can weld tubes across the bottom of the footer plates to tie them into the subframe connectors on one side and the rocker panel seam on the other side. This will greatly increase the punch through resistance of the main hoop. Make sure that the main hoop is completely installed before this modification is done.

Currently the SCCA and NASA have aligned their requirements for footer and backer plates in racing classes. They both have a maximum area of 100"^2 for each plate. The minimum dimension on each side is 2". There is no minimum plate area.

Due to differences in the chassis and seat design, the main hoop of the MM 4-point rollbars for the S197 Mustangs mounts directly to the top of the rear seat bulkhead. This is a very strong mounting location. The main hoop would completely buckle before there was any danger of punch through.

[79289chase]

Did anyone else see the episode of HorsepowerTV on spike this weekend? They installed one of these autopower bolt in setups in the track car they are building. And they show video of them just drilling holes and slapping on the bottom pieces. Its amazing at what can be shown on tv.

[MVK13]

Originally Posted by Jack Hidley

The MM 4-point rollbars for Fox and SN95 Mustangs are designed to be NHRA legal for drag racing. NHRA requires the use of 6" x 6" footer and backer plates that are 1/8" thick for all four mounting points. That is what we use.

The footer plates that bolt to the rear inner fenders are very strong since they are curved in two directions. This curvature puts the footer, backer and inner fender into a degree of compression and reduces the amount of shear and bending forces. This joint is really strong.

The main hoop attaches to the floorpan as close to the rear set bulkhead as possible. It really isn't possible to make a bolt in main hoop that attaches with a 6" x 6" footer plate to the top of the rear seat bulkhead. The footer and backer plates would be very difficult to fabricate. The main hoop would be difficult to install since you would need to remove the mufflers from the car and drill holes into two different planes. I suspect there would be a lot of fitment problems due to variations in the shape of the top of the seat bulkhead. The rear seat cushion would become very difficult to reinstall making the car much louder inside.

If you do want to use the 4-point rollbar for HPDE use, any capable chassis shop can weld tubes across the bottom of the footer plates to tie them into the subframe connectors on one side and the rocker panel seam on the other side. This will greatly increase the punch through resistance of the main hoop. Make sure that the main hoop is completely installed before this modification is done.

Currently the SCCA and NASA have aligned their requirements for footer and backer plates in racing classes. They both have a maximum area of 100"^2 for each plate. The minimum dimension on each side is 2". There is no minimum plate area.

Due to differences in the chassis and seat design, the main hoop of the MM 4-point rollbars for the S197 Mustangs mounts directly to the top of the rear seat bulkhead. This is a very strong mounting location. The main hoop would completely buckle before there was any danger of punch through.

Thanks Jack I'll weld in some tubes to points you suggest. I want it to be strong, my kids ride in the back which was originally the point of getting a rollbar in my mid life crisis convertible

[mlanoux]

Originally Posted by MVK13

Thanks Jack I'll weld in some tubes to points you suggest. I want it to be strong, my kids ride in the back which was originally the point of getting a rollbar in my mid life crisis convertible

Oh God...you just opened another can-o-worms with that statement

[carrew]

Originally Posted by MVK13

Thanks Jack I'll weld in some tubes to points you suggest. I want it to be strong, my kids ride in the back which was originally the point of getting a rollbar in my mid life crisis convertible

I would make the cross bar removable, even with padding the impact with a head can be deadly.

[85GTVince]

Originally Posted by MVK13

Thanks Jack I'll weld in some tubes to points you suggest. I want it to be strong, my kids ride in the back which was originally the point of getting a rollbar in my mid life crisis convertible

I don't want to tell you what you should or should not do, but I would highly recommend that you do a search here and on Corner-Carvers for rollbars in street cars.

The short version is that they do not mix well with people, especially heads. In an accident people distort and move much farther than you would think is possible. Factory seat belts do not do a good job of holding people in place and the resulting impact with a metal tube can be very dangerous.

At the end of the day it is your car and it is your family, but you should at least be aware of the potential consequences before you go down that path.


--Vince

[black'vert]

Originally Posted by carrew

I would make the cross bar removable, even with padding the impact with a head can be deadly.

I am looking to do the same for my 88 notch, the crossbar is pushing my factory seat too far forward. Any suggestions to convert my welded bar into a removeable one?

[MVK13]

Originally Posted by 85GTVince

I don't want to tell you what you should or should not do, but I would highly recommend that you do a search here and on Corner-Carvers for rollbars in street cars.

The short version is that they do not mix well with people, especially heads. In an accident people distort and move much farther than you would think is possible. Factory seat belts do not do a good job of holding people in place and the resulting impact with a metal tube can be very dangerous.

At the end of the day it is your car and it is your family, but you should at least be aware of the potential consequences before you go down that path.


--Vince

Thanks Vince and everyone. I will do that research. I have a removable harness bar and the padding the MM rep recommended.

[SCCA_Stang]

Originally Posted by 85GTVince

I don't want to tell you what you should or should not do, but I would highly recommend that you do a search here and on Corner-Carvers for rollbars in street cars.

The short version is that they do not mix well with people, especially heads. In an accident people distort and move much farther than you would think is possible. Factory seat belts do not do a good job of holding people in place and the resulting impact with a metal tube can be very dangerous.

At the end of the day it is your car and it is your family, but you should at least be aware of the potential consequences before you go down that path.


--Vince

I agree 100%...

I have a harness bar in my car and I keep a full interior, but no-one is allowed to ride in the back with the bar in place.

[Cellos88gt]

so after all is said and done, what roll bar does the occasional track goer go with? Prior to reading this thread, I was dead set on the auto-power 4 point roll bar with the cross and diagonal bar but now I'm not so sure.

[Jack Hidley]

Here is how I would mount the removable harness bar.

http://home.comcast.net/~jhidley/Rol...ss-closeup.JPG

This will give you a couple inches of additional clearance.

[gt40mkII]

Originally Posted by Cellos88gt

so after all is said and done, what roll bar does the occasional track goer go with? Prior to reading this thread, I was dead set on the auto-power 4 point roll bar with the cross and diagonal bar but now I'm not so sure.

The simple answer is to go with the best bar you can possibly afford, IF you need it.

IMHO, unless you've been open-tracking for a while and have been signed off to solo, you don't need a bar UNLESS you are driving a convertible. (If you have n instructor in the car, he should be keeping you slow enough that a rollover is pretty unlikely -- if not, find another instructor.)

Personally, I'd shop for bars in the following order:

• A custom-made bar designed and build by an EXPERIENCED fabricator building road racing cages. Drag cage builders need not apply.
• A cage kit from Griggs Racing or Maximum Motorsports installed by an experienced fabricator who knows how to tie the foot pads into the car's structure effectively.
• An Autopower or equivalent bar with modified footpads installed by the same guy as above.

I DO NOT RECOMMEND:

• A roll bar built and/or installed by a hot-rod or show-car shop (this is how this thread got started!)
• A bar or cage installed by a drag race shop (drag and road racing cages have significant differences and a drag cage will be illegal for most road racing classes, of the owner chooses to progress into wheel-to-wheel racing.)
• A roll bar built by your buddy "who welds real good." (Even if that buddy is you.)

[MFE]

I think it's fair to note that Autopower bolt-in 4-points have held up admirably well in some relatively spectacular rollovers, where I'd rather have had one than nothing at all.

[2k2GT]

I agree with MFE, I feel comfortable with my Autopower 4-point. I may add an under bar/brace/bracket like pictured earlier, but not high on the priority list.

[black'vert]

Originally Posted by Jack Hidley

Here is how I would mount the removable harness bar.



This will give you a couple inches of additional clearance.

Does this setup come as a kit? and where can I find one????

Exactly the clearance I need!

here is the setup in my notch

[terryr]

Did anyone else see the episode of HorsepowerTV on spike this weekend? They installed one of these autopower bolt in setups in the track car they are building. And they show video of them just drilling holes and slapping on the bottom pieces. Its amazing at what can be shown on tv.

I saw that right after reading this thread. "notice how the bottom plates bend to conform to the floorpan."

I want it to be strong, my kids ride in the back which was originally the point of getting a rollbar in my mid life crisis convertible

Bad for heads, like the others said. I read an Australian project where the cops called a guys car unsafe because it had a rollbar, because of head injuries in an accident.
Maybe just drive slower.

[Jack Hidley]

The removable harness bar is an option on all of the MM 4-point rollbars.

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/co...en_700x525.jpg

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/st...&cPath=121_126

[carrew]

Other option is to remove the rear seats and just make it a two seat car. Which is what I did, my Battery and ignition system sits in the rear seat pods now.

[black'vert]

Originally Posted by carrew

Other option is to remove the rear seats and just make it a two seat car. Which is what I did, my Battery and ignition system sits in the rear seat pods now.

A rear seat delete is in the future since the rear bars pass through the area normally occupied by the upper seat cushion/package tray. The removeable harness bar is needed to make my driving experience more comfortable while the car is being driven around town( not on the track)

[goatnipples2002]

Originally Posted by MJ91GT

Guess it goes to show, when modifying a car for any reason, you should always research, then research that research, then ask the question over and over and make sure it's correct, hoping that you didn't get the same bogus info from multiple sources.

Read the rest of the quote if you haven't, but this is some of the BEST advice EVER.

[goatnipples2002]

Originally Posted by MJ91GT

Guess it goes to show, when modifying a car for any reason, you should always research, then research that research, then ask the question over and over and make sure it's correct, hoping that you didn't get the same bogus info from multiple sources.

Read the rest of the quote if you haven't (post #17), but this is some of the BEST advice EVER.

[Jack Hidley]

From a manufacturers standpoint, to address some of the comments in post #17, this is very difficult situation for us. The more specific the advice we give about how to install and how to not install a given product, especially a rollbar, the more liability we take on if there is an injury and we weren't absolutely 100% clear on what to do or not do. This is why a lot of install instructions now say things such as "If you don't feel qualified to install this product, take it to a professional".

It is impossible for a manufacturer to figure out all of the incorrect ways to install a product and say "Don't do x, y, z, p, d, q,..." Whenever we think we have come up with all of the wrong ways to install a part, we inevitably find some customer who has figured out another wrong way to do it.

The other major problem is that it is very difficult to get people to read install instructions that are longer than two pages or so. I don't know if this is due to the education system in the last 20 years, texting, e-mail, BBSes or what. In any case, we have to be very careful to try to keep the customers attention to rear the entire instructions. If we made the instructions even longer to include all the examples of how not to build your car, most people would never even read them and then really mess up the installation.

[MJ91GT]

Originally Posted by Jack Hidley

From a manufacturers standpoint, to address some of the comments in post #17, this is very difficult situation for us. The more specific the advice we give about how to install and how to not install a given product, especially a rollbar, the more liability we take on if there is an injury and we weren't absolutely 100% clear on what to do or not do. This is why a lot of install instructions now say things such as "If you don't feel qualified to install this product, take it to a professional".

It is impossible for a manufacturer to figure out all of the incorrect ways to install a product and say "Don't do x, y, z, p, d, q,..." Whenever we think we have come up with all of the wrong ways to install a part, we inevitably find some customer who has figured out another wrong way to do it.

The other major problem is that it is very difficult to get people to read install instructions that are longer than two pages or so. I don't know if this is due to the education system in the last 20 years, texting, e-mail, BBSes or what. In any case, we have to be very careful to try to keep the customers attention to rear the entire instructions. If we made the instructions even longer to include all the examples of how not to build your car, most people would never even read them and then really mess up the installation.

I wasn't saying every product out there needs the dos and don'ts of installation, but many saftey devices such as harness instructions do. Not many of the companies that make them have a good set of instructions to go along. I realize that these are made for open wheel cars to street cars modified for the track and everything in between, but the routing of the harness is key to the safety of the occupant and there needs to be better documentation of how to install them in each type of vehicle. This is just an example.

Now I know what you mean when it comes to finding that ideal amount of info to provide, I'd say that the instructions included with all the MM stuff I've installed is at that sweet spot. Of course there are instructions out there that lose people, but I don't know if it's the length of the document so much as how it's written, some of it seems as if the writer didn't have another person proof read it before they stuck it in the box with their part, many times the writer may have an understanding of the part that the average installer won't and that's where the installer gets lost. If they were well written, in a language the average installer can understand, and follow a logical progression, they can be long without losing the interest of the installer. Heck I think the only MM instruction packet that was 2 pages or less (that I've used so far) was for the sway bar bracket re-enforcement plates, yet I find most people praising your instructions.

[Sprayaway Fox]

All plexiglass windows and it pancaked like that? Taking a windshield out of a car takes alot of stregth out. Wonder if he was running a plexi front windshield too.