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Old 04-25-2009, 11:14 AM   #1
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Do not use livernoise cncn 3 vlave heads .. flow numbers are a lie.. read inside

OK let me preface this by saying i gave livernoise four MONTHS to come up with a fix .. i also gave them every chance in the world

they actualy MADE A WHOLE NEW cnc program that hoged the heads way way way out in order to even come close to the max flow numbers they claimed but the were down as much as SEVENTY cfm in the mid lifts.

here are my posts from another board on the subject .. Ill let you decide.

here is the first post listing the problems with the first set of heads i recieved .. wich took 2 months .., after being told it would be five days they were on the shelf.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Psiperformance
So i order a set of livernoise stage 3 heads cnc ported with 1 mm biger valves and 600 lift springs etc.

the flow claimed for these heads is 301 cfm intake and 215 exhaust at 600 lift.

well i just got them to my machine shop Kotzur racing engines who hand ported my first head set.

This is a reputable and serious machine shop they do all the machine work on my motors and on mike murillos motors and his race cars.

The heads flowed only 262 cfm at .600 lift on kotzurs bench and the exhaust was only 178 cfm at .600 lift

both numbers down 10 cfm from the hand ported heads i just removed in order to replace them with these.

The flow bench is not suspect as i had this same bench flow the heads on my race car and they were 9 cfm off from the numbers from Total engine air flow so i would say its prety acurate and it gets calibrated once a month.

However to be safe i took them to a second machine shop kendrick machine in san antonio texas and bang same flow numbers

I then due to the numbers took a much longer look at the heads and the valves are not what they were suposed to be they are 1 mm larger exhaust wich IS correct but are stock size on the intake and were supposed to be 1 mm larger intake.


I have called livernoise and was told that for 1 they flow the heads on a 3.7 inch big bore so you cant expect those numbers on a stock bore.

But 40 cfm is way out of the range of flow bench and bore size discrepency

as can be imagined im very upset at this point having removed and sold a set of heads wich were superior to what I paid 2800 bucks for and not having goten anything near what is advertised.

Has anyone else on the board goten a set of these heads and had the flow verified by a nuetral bench ?

I am awaiting a call back from them tomorrow as they said no one in the machin shop was there today to talk to me.

I will let the board know exactly how things go and are handled.

here after TWO MORE MONTHS i recieve what livernoise claims is a 3r head and should be superior in every way to the stage 3 301 cfm head.. this head being designed as a direct result of me and others calling livernoise bs on flow for modular heads


Quote:
Originally Posted by Psiperformance
ok let me start by saying I will never purchase anything from livernoise again. the continued exscuses the 4 month time frame to get what still is no where near what was advertised and promised has been just to much.

here is the real world flownumbers .. again on the same bench that livernoise said matched theirs for flow when i returned the first heads.
ok i posted here the claimed in the sheet i recieved vs teh advertised .. and now to the right ill post the REAL WORLD numbers and let me preface this by saying that if anything livernoise should have had a advantage because we flowed the heads on a 3.78 bore wich is .08 bigger then livernoise did.

ntake exhaust real numbers intake - exhaust at the same lift
100. 91.5 adv 131 100. 63.4 adv 64
200 181.0 adv 219 200. 107.7 adv 126 real 149 - 97
300 244.9 adv 285 300. 144.4 adv 165 real 217 - 133
400 278.0 adv 285 400. 168.3 adv 186 real 256 - 158
500 294.1 adv 291 500. 189.5 adv 205 real 278 - 182
600 304.4 adv 301 600. 195.5 adv 215 real 291 - 188

ok so ill let you do the math as much as SEVENTY cfm down from the advertised numbers in the low lifts. and down 30 to 40 cfm from the numbers they claimed on the flow sheet sent to me.
they came closer to max flow numbers within 10 cfm of peek numbers for flow but my god the area under the curve difference is just plain without a question proof that livernoise has been in my opinion exagerating about the flow of the stage 3 cnc heads.

Now i want everyone to know that andy at livernoise told me personaly that when i returned the first set of heads they flowed on THEIR flow bench almost exactly what i claimed they did in my first post on this forum.

so i dont want to hear exscuses about different flow benches from them this time around because he has already admited to me this bench is prety much in line with the bench they have.

at this point im going to demand a full refund and that all shipping be paid for or im going to charge my credit card back and if they want the heads they can send a ups call tag for them pre paid shipping.

I have tried to give them every benifit of the doubt and chance to rectify the situation but at this point the only conclusion i can come to is livernoise has been lieing on flow numbers.

at this point im FOUR MONTHS delayed on my build just to try to get what they told me was a 5 day out head and to have it meet the advertised numbers wich they STILL have not done.

you now have TWO people on this board alone who have recieved the numbers of the "superior" 3r head and both of us have numbers far inferior to the flow they claim in advertisments for the base stage 3 head.


as for the valve train ?

nothing special behive springs with a set of steel reatiners .. same thing prety much everyone uses on this kind of setup.

The springs incuded COIL BIND at .570 lift meaning they are safe for no more than 530 to 540 ish lift normal use

so WHY does livernoise flow these heads and advertised the flow to 600 lift then send them with valve train that cant handle 550 lift safely when i clearly told them ill be useing a custom cam near 600 lift ?

as i said in the post its my opinion livernoise has been lieing on its cylinder head flow numbers and in its advertisments..

i can see 15-even 20 cfm BUT SEVENTY CFM ? sorry someones been lieing to the consumer.

on top of that i have two customers who recieved livernoise 4 valve heads.
one was sent two left heads
the other was setn stock valve train in what was supposed to be a stage 3 full on race head.
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Old 04-25-2009, 01:36 PM   #2
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wow, thats horrible, if you got a cam that is setup for a 600lift, and its starts to bind at 570lift, you could casue some damage.
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Old 04-25-2009, 05:35 PM   #3
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That blows. I've never heard such discrepencies aboot livernois before. So what heads are you going to go with, something else or back to the ones you had before?
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Old 04-26-2009, 03:36 AM   #4
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WOW I wonder how many sets of heads are out there like yours? And I bet not many if any people has put there head on a flow bench like you. There is no telling what kind of heads they got. But this is the first bad thing I heard about them. I would think they would make it right through.
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Old 04-26-2009, 03:49 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingbrian1@hotmail.com View Post
But this is the first bad thing I heard about them. I would think they would make it right through.
I've seen some VERY crappy work from them on a car that they built. I couldn't believe that it was one of their cars!
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Old 04-26-2009, 07:58 AM   #6
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Call Ron @ Fox Lake. He can do some pretty stout work on 3V heads.
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Old 04-26-2009, 08:51 PM   #7
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We've worked very hard for the reputation we have today and wouldn't do anything to jeopardize that or intentionally try to mislead anyone. Our products speak for themselves. Shops all over the country run our heads and the worlds quickest and fastest modular powered vehicle (6.33 @ 224mph) and quickest/fastest single power adder 3V Mustang also runs our heads.

This was from a customer on another site regarding his GM heads (Our stage 3 LS-Series CNC Heads).

I received my stage III heads and had 'em flowed locally. The flow bench used is as honest as they come (numbers are very close to other local benches). They were flowed from 200-600 (advertised #'s condensed compared to Livernois' website).
No doubt they're as good as advertised

MINE.......................................ADVERTI SED
Lift.......Intake......Exhaust..........Intake.... exhaust
200......138..........111.2.............148....... 110.5
300......212..........144.1.............220.5....1 55.8
400......262..........184.2.............268.7....1 80.0
500......306.6........202.6............296.2.....2 01.6
600......330.2........217.7............318.5.....2 18.5

We apologize about the inconvenience and will give you a full refund for the heads. We will also talk to our staff members tomorrow to get more information.

Regards,

Rick LeBlanc
Livernois Motorsports
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Old 04-26-2009, 09:14 PM   #8
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that sucks!
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Old 04-27-2009, 06:14 PM   #9
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From Mike in Engine Build:

Okay, so here is where I am at with gathering of data.

The first thing I did was get copies of the orders as well as correspondence and dates of this info. This is not to discount anything that anybody is saying but only to go with what hard info I can find. Here is the timeline of events I have found.

Quoted Date- 1 Week

1/20/09- Initial Order Date

2/03/09- Shipped Date (See att. #1)

So the quoted date was 1 week and we shipped in two weeks or 10 business days instead. I can understand the frustration in being a week late, but I could also see that one week might not be the end of the world if other issues had arisen. I know that the current castings that we had received from our supplier did all indeed have issues with concentricity in the guide bore to seat bore relation. We had many orders in the queue at the time and decided that the product would be inferior unless we scrapped the castings we had and got more. So we did indeed do that and purchased more castings. This did cause a 1 to 1½ week delay. At this point all we can do is apologize for this delay, it was a situation that was unavoidable but in order to ship only good product it had to happen.

2/26/09- Complaint/Issue Posted on MF

2/27/09- Contacted and instructed by Andy what to do next.

3/06/09- Contacted by Andy on MF via PM (See att #2) to check on flow progress you had made. Andy offered if the heads had not shipped at that point that he would issue a call tag to get the heads back on our UPS account so that PSI would not be charged for the shipping.

3/10/09- PSI responds to Andy letting him know that the heads were shipped out today (See att #3)

The date of the head arrival is information I have yet to been able to find in any written format. On the receiving end since we receive the packages in a batch we are unable to easily see the package or track it. A further call placed to UPS today verified that the only way to get accurate and exact tracking would have to come from the originator of the shipment. So given that it would be appreciated if PSI could find the original tracking number or maybe provide us with the required info so we can coordinate with UPS and get that date solidified. As of right now we only have an estimated date of arrival and I would prefer only to use hard facts.

3/23/09-3/27/09 Estimated date of arrival for heads back from PSI

3/25/09- Started on replacement set of heads

3/26/09-4/01/09- CNC Machine is down for repair (Not customers fault, only listed to show holdups in manufacturing new heads for customer)

3/30/09-4/02/09 Primary or initial teardown and flow baseline

4/02/09-4/07/09- Newen Valve Machine is down for repair (Not customers fault, only listed to show holdups in manufacturing new heads for customer)

4/03/09- Secondary flow verification to qualify numbers as good and eliminate any variables. Established a solid baseline number (See att #4)

4/06/09- (Estimate) Andy called and attempted to leave a message but voice mailbox was full

4/08/09- (Estimate) PSI returns call to Andy and Andy informs him that if all goes well we should ship by that Friday the 10th.

4/09/09- (Estimate) Andy calls PSI asking for the bore size of the engine so that we can verify that is it 3.700 bore. The reason being is that we would like to install our new upgraded valve seats in the cylinder heads since they are an improvement over stock and at this point we would like to try and provide whatever improvements we can to the heads as they became available. This was just to try and give the customer something for his inconvenience.

4/13/09- New valve seats are received in to go along with these heads. (See att. #5)

4/15/09- (Estimate) PSI returns Andys phone call and informs him that indeed the heads are for a 3.700 bore engine.

4/15/09-4/17/09- Heads are finished and ready to ship (Heads do not ship with UPS that Friday the 17th however due to missing the UPS cutoff)

4/20/09- Heads ship Monday the 20th via UPS. (See att. #6)

So in this cycle from the initial start and order date to the date of the second set of heads shipping I have 3 months on the nose.

Now looking at the numbers and data that is listed currently here is what I have. The numbers in that small graph that show the advertised number for the higher .100 and .200 numbers are way off. These do not match our actual numbers on the head. After sifting through the old flow data I found the error in the flowsheet where the formula was goofed and the equation used to come up with those flow numbers are wrong. Again this was not Ricks fault as he was handed the sheet and went with what was listed. This error is all involved fault, we should have been more diligent in our methods and done a better job of checking the accuracy of the website to catch this error. As of writing this all of the flow numbers that do not have current verification are being pulled from the site in order to verify that they are indeed correct.

Next beyond that is the flow sheet that goes with your heads is not the sheet you indeed have. This error was the result of terminology. Andy was told that the heads were being done using the 3R seats; he mistook that as your heads were being done to the newer 3R version which is supposed to be released shortly. These heads have the larger seats as well. So he thought the flow numbers were the same not realizing that the numbers were indeed different between your heads and this first one-off set of 3R heads. This is partially my fault as well as I did not clearly explain this to him and only used the 3R terminology. I should have clearly stated the difference in heads and why. So part of the blame for that goes on me and I am indeed sorry for that.

Since all this has come up we went and looked at our flowbench and checked the verification to see where it was at. It was verified about 6 months ago and then again just today. The numbers are within 1cfm of the factory verification that Superflow did on the machine when they had it last. So we know the bench is good. We also had a head checked on our bench and another bench and the numbers were within 2 CFM.

I am listing the flow bench calibration info just because I am confused as to the numbers that PSI initially listed on the first set of heads that they received. The numbers listed for the first set of heads we sent say they do not even break the 260 mark. Yet on this same calibrated bench that I just listed the calibration and dates for I have the following flow sheet (see att #4). This lists them at 282cfm and this was exactly as the heads were out of the box as we received them back from PSI. So at this point I am kind of confused why the numbers are so different.

I think at this point an independent test is needed. So for this we are going to try and have Mark if he would be gracious enough to allow us to use his heads have them test flowed at an independent shop that is close to him. We are just looking to have an independent shop verify the numbers that we gave to Mark as well as he posted.

Beyond everything at this point I can see why you are frustrated with what you have received. We have made mistakes on our side that allowed you to get to this point. First we sent out a set of development heads that were not supposed to be for any customer and were only for testing. Then we screwed up the flow numbers and should have checked them for accuracy. These are mistakes that I can understand in your scenario if you would choose not to deal with us in the future. All we can do is apologize for these mistakes at this point. We also would offer a full refund to PSI for these heads as well.

What I have listed here is the facts as I have found them. It is not my intention to try and place blame on anyone else. Livernois as an organization made mistakes that lead to this. I can say that I found no intent to deceive or trick anyone and only found these errors which lead to this situation. While we try and hold ourselves to the highest standards I also understand the ability to make mistakes will happen and at that point the only respectable thing to do is own up and be honest about those mistakes. Being open and truthful is paramount in business. We have worked very hard to build our reputation and that is done through customer service, good reliable product and many other factors. If we do make mistakes we need to make sure to make things right.

I do intend to keep sifting through information as it appears before me. I also am going to doing further investigation into all the information posted on the website. I know that we try to be as accurate as possible but I want to guarantee that all the information listed is as accurate as possible.

If anyone has any questions feel free to contact me. I would like to thank Mark for being the guinea pig to test and verify numbers at an outside source if he is indeed able to do so.

Thanks
Mike

Rick Leblanc, Andy Ricketts, Dan Millen and Tom Millen all contributed and helped me in my search for information.
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Old 04-27-2009, 06:20 PM   #10
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The attachment can be found here
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