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post #71 of 93 Old 01-31-2016, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Raceallday1 View Post
One of the main reasons the US has lost so many jobs over the past 3 decades is due to the fact the US still has the highest effective corporate tax rate in the world. This is after Reagan cut taxes in the early 80s.
Whether or not it's a reason at all is up for debate, much less "one of the main reasons." The effective corporate tax has been trending down, not up; the overall tax share paid by corporations has also gone down, not up.

According to the 'logic' you're employing here, the U.S. shouldn't be shedding jobs, or should at least be doing so at markedly lower rates.

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When the peasants punish the royalty that employs them via the government, the royalty moves elsewhere. Then the peasants want to complain about their greedy royalty companies when they get laid off.
The suggestion that the "peasants" have had any say in this at all is hilariously na´ve. Corporate profits are at historically high levels and corporate taxes account for historically low share of the tax burden by GDP. Income, as you've admitted on multiple occasions on this forum, has been stagnant for decades. The wealth gap in the United States is the largest in the developed world. The top very few control the vast majority of the nation's assets. The top very few benefit the most from tax cuts. The top few benefited from the housing bubble. The top few benefiting from the bailouts. The top few benefited from the recession.

The implication that the royalty in this scenario are even close to "punished" is one that requires willful disinterest in both historical, and current, fact.
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post #72 of 93 Old 02-01-2016, 12:45 AM
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It's pretty well established the trickle down never worked, except for the rich. As a former engineer at Zenith, former GM at an automotive parts manufacturing facility, with a wife who was human resources manager for Leggett Platt, I know know first hand how these move deals go and what Reagan did.

We never closed a plant based on corporate tax rates, because there are already so many loophole advantages the taxes are nothing.

Tens of thousands of lower wage factory jobs left the USA when Reagan sold the consumer electronics industry to Japan. Zenith, Magnavox and others sued because the Japanese were dumping goods for years in direct violation of law, but our good leaders blocked any enforcement. Even when we won the lawsuit Reagan's crew prevented enforcement and collection. Shortly after Reagan left office, he did this speech with the SAME cartel that was dumping:

Japan Bids Welcome (in 7 Figures) to Reagan - NYTimes.com

When Zenith/Heath and other companies moved jobs offshore, it was never about taxes. It was because we could get labor for nothing, and not have to worry about EPA regulations on paint, lead, and other things.

Leggett Platt closed profitable plants and moved things to China, because labor was pennies on the US dollar. It has nothing to do with tax.

We have lost countless jobs through all of the crap that has been going on, never to have those jobs replaced, because we swallowed that "manufacturing is not important" tripe from Reagan and the pure BS that eliminating trade equalization through elimination of tariffs creates jobs.

If you look at this graphically, you can see the middle class went into the spiral at the same time jobs went into a spiral, at the same time Reaganomics and all these dumb free trade deals took effect.

At the present time, we are pumping money to China at the rate of about $2K or 3K per living citizen per year, man, woman , and child. That is the net LOSS overseas from our wealth, just to communist China. This is why their infrastructure is growing, and ours is falling apart.

All those low skill unimportant jobs in mills and assembly lines are gone, replaced by foreign labor, and we have to pay the welfare. US taxpayers, not Leggett, paid my wife about $90K total for her job loss to China.

We have drank the cool aid. We are now apparently are too stupid as a whole to realize what the real problem is and fix it.


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post #73 of 93 Old 02-02-2016, 12:40 PM
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Effective tax rate for corporates is not the highest in any case, as pointed out by Mike and Tom the rate is not the rate. Second you have to look at the rate of tax on say a CEO, it can be next to zero if he has a huge part of his compensation in stock for instance. For that the US is well below other developed countries. Of course other countries with better standard of living get free nationalized health care, education etc.

I would argue that there needs to be an uprising in an area not discussed very often, shareholders. Why because the compensation for management is bleeding the money from corporations at a very high rate. All corporate boardrooms are incestuous in my opinion. While a tightly held family corporation may have an agenda that is good for all owners, once you get to a larger corporation the board members end up being minority holders where their compensation far outweighs the benefits of their ownership. Many board members sit on multiple boards so it all becomes incestuous where the CEO is overcompensated in company A and then sits on company B's board and votes compensation for the CEO there. The average shareholder...you and I who have stock in our 401K pay their inflated salary and have no say at all.

PS Wikipedia should not be used as an unbiased source for any argument outside of who played what part in what film IMHO.
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post #74 of 93 Old 02-02-2016, 01:33 PM
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Correct, Wikipedia in and of itself is not a source. It's an aggregate. The sources that make up the articles are what need to be quoted.
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post #75 of 93 Old 02-02-2016, 08:14 PM
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I can give good examples, because I have worked in manufacturing at a level where I know where and why jobs were moved. It is not like the spin about taxes. That is BS.

As a matter of fact, now that I work as a contract OEM electronics product engineer, I incorporated. My tax rate went through the floor over being a "person".

I can't recall a single instance in 40 years where someone closed or moved a business because of high federal corporate tax rates. Everything I have seen move was because labor was cheaper, and secondarily because environmental costs were less and environmental restrictions were looser.

We couldn't use lead, thallium, or arsenic in Cleveland, and people wanted $8 an hour. The jobs went to Mexico, where it was $8 day US money and no one fined the company if Jose' got a little sick.


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post #76 of 93 Old 02-06-2016, 09:17 AM
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your on the retailer side.but cheaper fuel mean lower cost for farmers growing the food that you eat too. do you like you grocery bills high? we are the buying public and need prices reasonable soo we can enjoy our pay checks, not giving it all to people like you. those loans are mostly paid back. the Wallstreet money has not at all. republicans don't give a #### about the people who vote them in to office. they're for big business. you better watch out for Ted Cruze, he was born in Canada. I don't like Trump but he has a point on the citizen ship rule. Obama was at least born in the USA. next time you buy some steaks, buy the most expensive ones they have, your made of money!

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post #77 of 93 Old 02-06-2016, 09:28 AM
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trickle down does work. that fast food near any business or factory gets sales from those workers. that kid working at the fast food spends their money on clothes etc. the more money you have to spend goes to you enjoying your off time going to movies, fishing, racing, buying that cool new tool, that enclosed trailer out back too. on a strick budget from low income, you couldn't do most of these things. we for the most part make a ok living or have the oppratunity to better ourselves. some republicans would like to break the middle class which kill the economy. we pay the bulk of taxes.

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post #78 of 93 Old 02-17-2016, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 5.8 TurboCoupe View Post
If you are going to use Wikipedia to source your arguments, you should at least take a peek at what is said in the very first sentence of it's entry on trickle down economics:

"Trickle-down economics", also referred to as "trickle-down theory", is a populist political term used to characterize economic policies as favoring the wealthy or privileged.

So, Tom's paraphrase doesnt sound far off here as you suggest.
Characterized by whom? Dishonest politicians like Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, or Bernie Sanders? All of whom endorse more government regulation and taxation on corporations and other business in order to fund their various vote buying apparatuses via more handouts. Trickle down economics threatens their job security as a politician.



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Worthless statement if there ever was one. The same thing could be said of just plain old economics, effects of aging, or gravity.
.
You do realize the success of trickle down economics is as carved in stone as the fact George Washington was the first president? Are you going to address the fact or side step it?


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Which corporations? Who benefits and who pays?
.
Everyone benefits, from the corporate CEOs to the janitor at Wal Mart. They net more on their paycheck, they buy more stuff, they pay more state, local, and federal tax when they buy said stuff.

What do people generally do when they receive their annual income tax refunds? They go spend the money. Under trickle down economics, they simply get a slightly larger refund, or pay tax less per check.


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Increases and decreases in net earnings, employment prospects, market stability/ confidence, age, health costs/issues, children/parent expenses, cost of living, etc, etc all have a role in determining spending habits. A fatter paycheck allows and even encourages more consumer spending but if the resulting tax revenues are subsequently lost to increased wasteful government spending/borrowing as experienced during Reagans 2 terms we carry that burden forward for the next congress and president to deal with, in this case Bush Sr. .
Wasteful government spending and trickle down economics have nothing to do with each other. If the government mishandles the extra tax revenue generated by the trickle down principle, how is that the fault of the principle? And think just how bad it would be had the extra revenue created not existed, yet the spending continued? That is one of the main defining points of Barack Obama's administration. Massive spending and no supportive revenue.



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Further, past a certain point in the acquisition of personal wealth, the focus often shifts from acquisition to maintaining and protecting the wealth. Spending more or all of it generally isnt the overriding priority in estate planning strategy. One of the more consistent hallmarks of the long-term wealthy, in fact, is a concerted effort to minimize spending/losses.
That is always going to be the case in any economic atmosphere, more specifically the bad ones.




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This corruption, incompetence and outright refusal to accept accountability in government is a mirror reflection of the caliber of the electorate from which participants of the government are sourced from.
.
Right, and all the focus has primarily been on the past 7 years. In the time, the democrats have been in control the majority of the time, along with a few establishment republicrats like John Boehner, Rand Paul, and others.

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post #79 of 93 Old 02-18-2016, 09:45 PM
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It's pretty well established the trickle down never worked, except for the rich..
How can it only work for the rich when it cuts taxes for every economic class?


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We never closed a plant based on corporate tax rates, because there are already so many loophole advantages the taxes are nothing..
I am not debating whether or not trickle down economics is the deciding factor on whether or not a corporation decides to move overseas or not. What I am saying is that tax cutting across the board is simply an incentive for them not to do so.

Would you debate the opposite? Would it be logical to say raising corporate tax rates would give corporations more incentive to stay in the US?




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Tens of thousands of lower wage factory jobs left the USA when Reagan sold the consumer electronics industry to Japan. Zenith, Magnavox and others sued because the Japanese were dumping goods for years in direct violation of law, but our good leaders blocked any enforcement. Even when we won the lawsuit Reagan's crew prevented enforcement and collection. Shortly after Reagan left office, he did this speech with the SAME cartel that was dumping:

Japan Bids Welcome (in 7 Figures) to Reagan - NYTimes.com
.
Seriously? You cite a near 30 year old NY Times newspaper article which is known to be one of the worst sources of information? Not only that, the article never directly stated Reagan was accepting bribes from Japanese executives. It's entire construction is conspiracy theory equivalent to the Weekly World News.


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When Zenith/Heath and other companies moved jobs offshore, it was never about taxes. It was because we could get labor for nothing, and not have to worry about EPA regulations on paint, lead, and other things.

Leggett Platt closed profitable plants and moved things to China, because labor was pennies on the US dollar. It has nothing to do with tax.
.
Here is a much more reasonable explanation. No one denies the US has been losing jobs to foreign countries with cheaper labor and less regulation. This has been going on for decades. The truth of the matter is the US has not had the benefit of being one of the only few nations on earth who produce practically everything for the world for several decades. Global competition has slowly crept in. A prime example are the US auto manufacturers. There used be mainly only the Big 3 as they called it in the US. Now there is Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, Kia, Fiat, BMW, Mercedes, Volvo, Audi, all who have major footprints and competition to the American manufacturers much more than they did in the 1950s.

The growing global competition, along with ever growing stricter government regulation, litigation, unions (even though they are shrinking), rising costs, all have played a role in many corporations going overseas to remain competitive.

Yet, in spite of all these facts, it never ceases to amaze conservatives how so many can still buy into the notion that somehow even more government regulation and taxation will somehow solve the problem.




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At the present time, we are pumping money to China at the rate of about $2K or 3K per living citizen per year, man, woman , and child. That is the net LOSS overseas from our wealth, just to communist China. This is why their infrastructure is growing, and ours is falling apart. .
Correct. And, according to Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton, and Barack Obama, if you impose more government control via, more regulation and taxation, somehow that will entice these corporations to bring jobs back to the US?




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We have drank the cool aid. We are now apparently are too stupid as a whole to realize what the real problem is and fix it.
No, about 48% of the registered voters who voted for democrats have drank the Kool Aid. The other 45% are telling them "I told you so", and the 48% are either too ignorant, scared, or lazy to admit it.

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post #80 of 93 Old 02-19-2016, 10:11 AM
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No, about 48% of the registered voters who voted for democrats have drank the Kool Aid. The other 45% are telling them "I told you so", and the 48% are either too ignorant, scared, or lazy to admit it.
I don't understand why you used odd percentages other than to try to look smart.

I would like to see corporate taxes lowered for US Factories and capital gains taxes increased or just included in personal income so that there would be incentive for companies to stay rooted in the US. But I am sure if you taxed capital gains harde the stock market would tank so that will never happen. It is a major loophole however that should fixed.
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post #81 of 93 Old 02-19-2016, 03:23 PM
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How can it only work for the rich when it cuts taxes for every economic class?
The Economic Recovery Tax Act of '81 initially lowered it, and the Tax Reform Act five years later expanded the lowest tax bracket and effectively raised the rate for the lowest earners back up while cutting the rate substantially (again) for the highest earners. Your statement completely ignores the fact that how a tax affects people is proportional to income. If one person makes $100/day and is taxed 10%, while another person makes $10,000/day and is taxed 30%, the impact is felt much more on the lower-wage worker despite just the number being lower. In six years, taxes for the highest earners went from 70% to 28%, while for the lowest earners it went from 14%, to 11%, and back to 15%. Even if it had gone from 14% to 10%, the effect would have been hilariously negligible by comparison.

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I am not debating whether or not trickle down economics is the deciding factor on whether or not a corporation decides to move overseas or not. What I am saying is that tax cutting across the board is simply an incentive for them not to do so.

Would you debate the opposite? Would it be logical to say raising corporate tax rates would give corporations more incentive to stay in the US?
It's not something that can be used to incentivize or de-centivize at all. It's nothing more than a talking point so that people like you can pretend you have solutions to overseas job losses, when in reality you're just needlessly conflating it with that same old anti-tax / anti-regulation /anti-government narrative. The countries we'd be competing with pay pennies for their labor and trash their environment in the process. You can lower corporate taxes until you're blue in the face, but it will never do enough to halt job losses. There need to be actual consequences to outsourcing and shifting jobs overseas while still benefiting from the safety and security of the U.S. economy and her soil, period.

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Correct. And, according to Bernie Sanders, Hillary Clinton, and Barack Obama, if you impose more government control via, more regulation and taxation, somehow that will entice these corporations to bring jobs back to the US?
No, that's not a position held by any of them, they're simply cognizant of the fact that those policies would have no actual effect on our competing with China, India, Honduras, Mexico, etc. I mean, what are you actually suggesting here? That we pay our workers as much as those countries? That we don't bother to ensure that manufacturing adheres to any environmental or health standards? Then we lower their taxes even more on top of that?

The right can criticize others when they come up with an actual solution to the problem that isn't the same old tantrum about corporate taxes.

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post #82 of 93 Old 03-17-2016, 08:13 PM
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The Economic Recovery Tax Act of '81 initially lowered it, and the Tax Reform Act five years later expanded the lowest tax bracket and effectively raised the rate for the lowest earners back up while cutting the rate substantially (again) for the highest earners. Your statement completely ignores the fact that how a tax affects people is proportional to income. If one person makes $100/day and is taxed 10%, while another person makes $10,000/day and is taxed 30%, the impact is felt much more on the lower-wage worker despite just the number being lower. In six years, taxes for the highest earners went from 70% to 28%, while for the lowest earners it went from 14%, to 11%, and back to 15%. Even if it had gone from 14% to 10%, the effect would have been hilariously negligible by comparison. .
The highest earners receive the largest tax cuts because, by far, they pay the most taxes, and have the most expenses in other areas. Taxes and expenses that blue and even most white collar workers never see. The federal tax rate, whether it is 70 or 28% is just part of the taxes. That doesn't include the countless state and local taxes. Taxes that come in the form of permits, licenses, equipment use taxes, excises taxes, employment taxes, taxes paid on the purchase of equipment, etc. Then there are countless liability insurances that have to be paid and attorneys on the payroll to protect from the countless frivolous lawsuit assaults. All of which require taxes to be paid on those services as well. This doesn't even scratch the surface of how hostile of an environment operating a business in the US has become.

And the democrats say that corporate America should pay more?



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The countries we'd be competing with pay pennies for their labor and trash their environment in the process. You can lower corporate taxes until you're blue in the face, but it will never do enough to halt job losses. There need to be actual consequences to outsourcing and shifting jobs overseas while still benefiting from the safety and security of the U.S. economy and her soil, period.
.

The consequences need to be focused on the other nations who trash their environment and pay pennies for their labor while the US based companies are forced to adhere to much more strict standards. This is grossly unfair to say the least. None of these problems can be addressed when you continue to have a far left faction within the government that panders to lobbyists that place the US at the bottom of their list of priorities.


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No, that's not a position held by any of them, they're simply cognizant of the fact that those policies would have no actual effect on our competing with China, India, Honduras, Mexico, etc. I mean, what are you actually suggesting here? That we pay our workers as much as those countries? That we don't bother to ensure that manufacturing adheres to any environmental or health standards? Then we lower their taxes even more on top of that? .
What I am saying is that instead of pandering to their far left base by suggesting that corporate America is the most unfair entity on earth while vowing to punish them further despite the facts, as you already acknowledge, that the US cannot compete with nations who trash their environments. That they instead, vow to place heavy taxes on nations who export to the US who do not adhere to, at the very least, 1980s US environmental and pay standards while also vowing to make the US a more corporate friendly environment. That instead of pledging more government handouts to the non productive members of society to buy votes. They instead pledge that money to federal research into more cost effective green energy that they claim to love so dear. That would be a small start

Unfortunately, the above suggestions are too patriotic to be even remotely considered by anyone on the far left.

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Obama is a left wing liberal looney but he don't run the country alone. Obamacare is/was a joke. He is just as much in the pocket of big business as the other dems or republicans. Hillary or Bernie are the same way, we are gonna give everyone everything for free, but who the hell pays for it? The working man. I liked Reagan, didn't care for Busch or Clinton. I will point this out...when we have a Pres of one party and Congress is controlled by the other party things work better. They have to met in the middle.
Money and power controls washington. We need term limits for senate/house etc set to 8 years total just like the pres is limited to. Outlaw lobbying.
When Obama first went in I heard the republicans are the party of no and they block everything so the pre can't get anything done, funny as hell the Dems had control. It is all a bunch of BS and propaganda for the dumb as hell general population.
If the dumb asses in Washington wanna create jobs why don't they talk to the Governors of the states that have the biggest job growth?

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And you're probably one of the dumb poor whites who votes for a person who would rape your mother in the ass to make another buck, raises your taxes, and you'd still vote for them.

Too bad the lounge political section does not require IQ tests to enter. Just think of the electrons wasted on idiocy.

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post #85 of 93 Old 04-12-2016, 09:08 PM
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And you're probably one of the dumb poor whites who votes for a person who would rape your mother in the ass to make another buck, raises your taxes, and you'd still vote for them.

Too bad the lounge political section does not require IQ tests to enter. Just think of the electrons wasted on idiocy.
You sir are an idiot, I pretty much said that both parties suck. They need damned term limits. Virtually every politician will sell out you and everyone you know to make themselves and their friends rich. Yet again they pass laws to take from the middle class working folks and give it to sorry chits that won't work and big business.
And I am white, not poor but upper middle class, as well as college educated and am employed by a fortune 500 company.

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post #86 of 93 Old 04-16-2016, 12:34 AM
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And I am white, not poor but upper middle class, as well as college educated and am employed by a fortune 500 company.
Going to the University of Phoenix to sweep the floors of an Amazon distribution center doesn't count.
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post #87 of 93 Old 04-19-2016, 12:59 PM
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Yet again for you dumb asses, all parties of politicians have sold us down the river for personal gain. They buy votes from the poor with free stuff paid for with increased taxes on those of us that pay taxes. They all kick the can down the road, one day it will all collapse and what then?
When I went to college there was no "online classes" BS, no internet.
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What solutions do you have? Again, I proposed term limits and outlaw lobbying. Also make it Federal law to have a balanced budget.
And your solutions, smart ass remarks, really? Come on it's our country they are flushing down the tubes!
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post #88 of 93 Old 06-30-2016, 02:19 PM
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So did you say the same thing about Bush from 2005-2007 when the economy took a #### on us all? Or was that Obama's fault as well...
This is a good point but I doubt either of them set out to make things worse. Politics has become like cheering for a sports team at this point; people just cheer for their side and blame the other one for everything that goes wrong, real or perceived.
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post #89 of 93 Old 06-30-2016, 04:20 PM
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Gas prices where i live have gone up almost 40 cents per gallon since early spring.....that's around a 20% increase....

If you think the President really has an effect on things directly.....you might think again....Congress.....still has to vote and can overturn...Right?

Sorry to burst your bubble here, but no matter who is President....we're in for a sh#t storm before long again....we are so dependent on the world economy now....Tell me where things are really great lately (in the world)......Its just a matter of time.....

Just me.....I just have a hard time when everyone wants to blame somebody for bad times.....

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post #90 of 93 Old 01-28-2017, 11:48 AM
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Im so glade that clown is gone!!
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post #91 of 93 Old 03-18-2017, 01:37 PM
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Since he signed the Iran nuclear deal which will not be approved by congress . He immediately lifted the sanctions on Iran which allowed them to sell oil on the world market. this glut has pushed prices down from $65/bbl to under $40/bbl and is about to put us into a great depression.
Ok, this is a popular question that many are thinking about, and some have researched, one thing you have to do is take what you read online with a grain of salt, and always confirm with several different sources, that being said if you look around and read enough you will find out there is a big push for Globalism from both sides Democrat and Republican, not just a global economy but a global Govt run by the UN. This is why you see the push for open boarders, seems that it is only the West that wants these open boarders, If you look up a man by the name of George Soros and read about him then find out who funds these politicians campaigns you will start to get an idea of what is going on. It has everything to do with $$$$$ follow the $$$$$ and you will find the answers, I read a post from Mr Steve Bannon, Mr Trumps Strategy adviser, he said the amount of corruption they are finding will shock the nation and many in the Obama admin will be in Federal prison, and perhaps Obama himself. We will see, I would suggest you take a look at a couple of web sites and start to educate yourself, because if I sat here and type everything I have learned over the last 18 months this post would be to long. here are the sites:
https://www.infowars.com/
Breitbart News Network
DRUDGE REPORT 2017«

Also you can watch Alex Jones from Infowars on youtube, I would also suggest looking for a guy named Michael Savage, he is a talk show host, you can listen to his casts on youtube as well, search the savage nation here is a list of radio stations he is currently on: http://www.michaelsavage.wnd.com/wp-...iliatesmap.php and his home page: http://www.michaelsavage.wnd.com/ and of course Mark Levin, if you can find him locally on the radio or listen here: Listen to The Mark Levin Show online
HTH, after a while of listening and reading you will have a good grasp of what is really going on, and remember always follow the money!
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post #92 of 93 Old 03-18-2017, 01:43 PM
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Yet again for you dumb asses, all parties of politicians have sold us down the river for personal gain. They buy votes from the poor with free stuff paid for with increased taxes on those of us that pay taxes. They all kick the can down the road, one day it will all collapse and what then?
When I went to college there was no "online classes" BS, no internet.
If you use Charmin, Bounty, Tide, Gain, Gillette, Pantene, Olay, Ivory, Vicks, Mr Clean, Head and Shoulders, Old Spice, Joy, Safeguard, Lava Soap, Downy, among others you are paying my salary and retirement. I worked my ass off to get where I am at.
What solutions do you have? Again, I proposed term limits and outlaw lobbying. Also make it Federal law to have a balanced budget.
And your solutions, smart ass remarks, really? Come on it's our country they are flushing down the tubes!
That is the plan, destroy the country and then have the UN run the world, the elite want world Govt, where they can control everything, the only thing standing in the way is the United States of America, and Mr Obama put us on such a fast track of destruction that we the people noticed something just wasn't quite right, and along comes Mr Trump, the only chance we the people have to turn this mess around, my fingers stay crossed. This coming from an independent voter.
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post #93 of 93 Old 03-19-2017, 09:27 AM
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LOL. We elected Steve Bannon and a chronic liar to save us.


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