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Old 07-24-2011, 10:43 PM   #1
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Question Another PWM Idle Control Issues Thread w/ MS2 v3.0

I've got my combo tightened up and road ready. I've been working on my idle and like most that are just starting out, I can't seem to get it nailed. I've done all the research and applied it without any luck.

Currently, in Closed Loop Idle, the car is idling between 650-700rpm with the idle valve UNPLUGGED. With the idle valve connected, it idles at 2500rpm. I've read several posts on here (keepitoldschool has several good threads) as well as MSefi and MSExtra, even used several suggested settings, but still can't get the idle to come down. I've set values to high and low extremes just to see which settings effected the idle and the lowest it got was 1800 but crept back to 2500. I'm not sure where to go from here and was hoping to get some help working this out.

Thanks
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Old 07-25-2011, 11:49 AM   #2
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What's your closed DC setting?
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Old 07-25-2011, 12:04 PM   #3
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Right now it's 14.8% at 38 steps. This was set late last night and was one of those, "let's see what it does figures."

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Old 07-26-2011, 07:21 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1BAD6T6 View Post
Right now it's 14.8% at 38 steps. This was set late last night and was one of those, "let's see what it does figures."


Try changing the "mim duty for pid" to 14.8 to match the closed dudty and see if it
Brings the idle down
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Old 07-26-2011, 09:12 AM   #5
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You've set it to regulate the idle between 15% and 19%? Not much room to work with there - and my experience with Ford IACs is that they're closed at 0 duty cycle.
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Old 07-26-2011, 10:30 AM   #6
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Yeah Matt, I know. Like I said, these were numbers I was screwing with and happened to be what I left in there for the night. They are by no means permanent.

93gtman - I've read just about every tuning thread you've started here and over on ttf. Really good stuff. I'll give her a try this evening and report back. I may start a thread over on ttf so I can post my logs and .msq files.
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Old 07-26-2011, 10:46 AM   #7
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I can give you my settings if you want? I will pm them to you when I get on my laptop later on. It will be a good starting point
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Old 07-26-2011, 11:06 AM   #8
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That would be great! Thank you sir.
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2012 Best 1320' 1.47 60' | 6.52 / 107.0 10.197/133.39 12psi
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Old 07-26-2011, 12:12 PM   #9
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sent you the PM let me know if it helps. If you want you can post it here too if it helps you out might help out someone else here too. ALSO i am running firmware 3.1.1 which is the latest and the idle control with it is def better than previous versions if you had that i would just send you my msq to look at.But i would recommed upgrading to the that firmware as well.
keep me posted!
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Old 07-26-2011, 12:23 PM   #10
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Thanks again! I'll see about updating my firmware too. Since I'm not too deep into this tune yet, I won't have to save much to prepare for the update.
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2013 Best 660' 1.40 60' | 6.37 / 107.9 11psi
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Old 07-26-2011, 12:32 PM   #11
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The update is well worth it it helped out a lot and was sugested to me by Haufist he is on this forum as well. Good luck and let me know
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Old 07-26-2011, 12:41 PM   #12
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HA! He built my MS2. Been texting him for the last few minutes. Talking about Full Metal Jacket quotes. I'll let him go into it from there. lol

On a side note, what AFR are you running at idle? Did you set you idle with the IAC unplugged at first then applied your idle settings afterward?
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2013 Best 660' 1.40 60' | 6.37 / 107.9 11psi
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:33 PM   #13
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Yes I set my idle without the iac first then when that was perfect I enabled the iac. I idle at 14.0-14.5 my car seems to like it there and is very stable but yours I would try first around 13.5 and see what it likes
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Old 07-26-2011, 04:51 PM   #14
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yeah, any leaner than 13.2-13.5 the dreaded hunt comes in.
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2013 Best 660' 1.40 60' | 6.37 / 107.9 11psi
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Old 07-26-2011, 10:50 PM   #15
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So after getting it started, it ran like crap. Pulled number 1 and found the following...



These looked brand new this weekend. Needless to say, I didn't get to play with it much tonight. Will buy another set of plugs tomorrow and start over.
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2012 Best 1320' 1.47 60' | 6.52 / 107.0 10.197/133.39 12psi
2013 Best 660' 1.40 60' | 6.37 / 107.9 11psi
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Old 07-28-2011, 01:25 PM   #16
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any update on how you are making out?
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Old 07-28-2011, 01:38 PM   #17
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Not much to update right now. I bought some Autolite 3923's last night, but between work and the "honey-do" list I haven't been able to touch the car. I will be on it tonight though. I'll have news this evening.
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2012 Best 1320' 1.47 60' | 6.52 / 107.0 10.197/133.39 12psi
2013 Best 660' 1.40 60' | 6.37 / 107.9 11psi
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Old 07-28-2011, 01:51 PM   #18
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ok cool looking forward
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Old 07-28-2011, 02:00 PM   #19
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Thanks again. I'll update asap.
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2012 Best 1320' 1.47 60' | 6.52 / 107.0 10.197/133.39 12psi
2013 Best 660' 1.40 60' | 6.37 / 107.9 11psi
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Old 07-28-2011, 11:30 PM   #20
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Thumbs down Update

Well, no go. Fired right up and immediately went to 2200rpm. I'm going to check and clean the solenoid as it might be the original piece. I'll have a lot more time to play with it this weekend. Good news is at that rpm my afr is a steady 13.8.

Funny thing is I've gone through 5 gallons of gas tuning the damn idle. Man this thing can drink it.
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2012 Best 1320' 1.47 60' | 6.52 / 107.0 10.197/133.39 12psi
2013 Best 660' 1.40 60' | 6.37 / 107.9 11psi
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Old 07-29-2011, 01:29 AM   #21
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watching to see how it works out for you. Paul sent me his tune and ill be updating to firmware 3.1.1 before I attempt a startup. Its too hot and ive been feeling like hell lately
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Old 07-29-2011, 07:40 AM   #22
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Did you ever try to set it to warmup only with the iac duty turned to 0 then see if it gets stuck at 2000rpm
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Old 07-29-2011, 09:50 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweat90lx View Post
watching to see how it works out for you. Paul sent me his tune and ill be updating to firmware 3.1.1 before I attempt a startup. Its too hot and ive been feeling like hell lately
Yeah, Paul's stuff usually works well with most folks that why I was a little surprised it didn't help me at all. I really think the IAC is malfunctioning.

Paul - I only had about 30minutes to play with the car last night so I didn't get to mess with alternate PWM settings. All I did was change plugs (regapped them) and threw your setting in the tune.

One thing I did notice was that the pitch of the engine changed intermittently. Almost, like the IAC was opening a little further then closing by the same amount repeatedly once every second. It was a sharp change like off/on.

I'll have a lot more time to mess with it tonight and this weekend. I hope to drive it on Saturday.
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2012 Best 1320' 1.47 60' | 6.52 / 107.0 10.197/133.39 12psi
2013 Best 660' 1.40 60' | 6.37 / 107.9 11psi
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Old 07-29-2011, 09:53 AM   #24
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PWM idle, especially in warmup mode, should be dead simple. If it's not, there's very likely something else going on here.

Have you tried completely plugging the air passages with the idle valve removed? Does it still idle high then? If so... air is getting in somewhere else and it's time to search out the vacuum leak. That is assuming the throttle body butterfly and any air bypass built into the TB aren't open too far.

There's really not much to go wrong with warmup PWM idle control. If you've got the settings correct as I believe Matt has guided you on, then 0=closed. IF it's closed and still idling high, air is getting in somewhere else.
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Old 07-29-2011, 10:14 AM   #25
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Thanks Jerry. I know Matt's advice is sound I just haven't had time to try PWM Warmup yet. I have set the idle with the idle valve unplugged and it holds at 850-900rpm. Still would be something to try though. Since I'm going to clean it anyway, I'll fab up a plate to close it off completely and go from there. Something tells me its the valve itself.

The neighbors may just have to get upset tonight. This thing is gonna work!
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2012 Best 1320' 1.47 60' | 6.52 / 107.0 10.197/133.39 12psi
2013 Best 660' 1.40 60' | 6.37 / 107.9 11psi
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Old 07-29-2011, 10:19 AM   #26
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try the warmup only when you get a chance and set it to 0 and see if it still idles high. if it does then like Jerry stated above it could be a vacuum leak. But based on what you said in your first post i don't think it is because when you said you unplug it the idle goes to 650-700. You could have your idle setting inverted you can check in startup/idle--pwm idle settings and check to see that your VALVE MODE is NORMAL,0=off. Or like you said you could just have a faulty IAC valve. keep us posted and good luck!
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Old 07-29-2011, 10:55 AM   #27
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That's a good sign if you unplug it and idle drops to sub-1000rpm. I'd suspect it is the control of the valve then. Definitely set for PWM Warmup mode, and go into the table, at the current running temp (once warmed up) and increase/decrease the commanded idle DC and click burn to make sure it takes effect immediately. Then see how it effects idle.

If the valve is set to run inverted of how it should be, 100 might be closed and 0 wide open > In that case you can invert it in Tunerstudio to make 0 closed and 100 open. Then once it's responding tune the table over the course of a couple full warmup cycles to get the idle speed you want when cold, when warming up, and when fully warm, at all temps.
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Old 07-29-2011, 11:06 AM   #28
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Great info guy. I've read about the "inverted" settings but once I'm in the car I completely forget about it. I'll add that to the list of things to do.

Thanks again for the help guys!
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2012 Best 1320' 1.47 60' | 6.52 / 107.0 10.197/133.39 12psi
2013 Best 660' 1.40 60' | 6.37 / 107.9 11psi
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Old 07-29-2011, 06:30 PM   #29
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All right guys. Has to be the idle valve. Switched to PWM Warmup and set the graph from 80* and hotter to 0. Started it and idled at 1300 for a second then jumped to 2200. Change the temp points from 0 to 50 and had zero change. Unplugged the thing and went right ti idling at 650-700. Gonna take it apart and clean it. If its hosed I'll drop the $60 and buy a new one.

Thanks again guys!
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2012 Best 1320' 1.47 60' | 6.52 / 107.0 10.197/133.39 12psi
2013 Best 660' 1.40 60' | 6.37 / 107.9 11psi
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Old 07-29-2011, 06:37 PM   #30
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yeah looks like its the iac..keep us posted
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Old 07-29-2011, 08:26 PM   #31
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On a side note, will the idle valve help smooth out the rolling idle I have? I've been over Matt's idle write up several times. Fuel rolls between 13.2 and 14.5, spark stays constant at 16*. AFR table is set to 13.5. I'm just curious if it'll help at all.
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2012 Best 1320' 1.47 60' | 6.52 / 107.0 10.197/133.39 12psi
2013 Best 660' 1.40 60' | 6.37 / 107.9 11psi
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Old 07-30-2011, 06:37 PM   #32
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closed loop idle will not smooth out your idle. that has to been done with fuel and spark tuning. the closed loop idle will catch ac/ps/electric fan and a falling idle like from when you get off the highway and let out the clutch from a high rev. it will feel pretty damn close to stock when you got it just right but it does take some tweaking every car is different.
But def get the fuel and spark tuned properly at idle to fix the rolling idle. how much is it rolling anyway?
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Old 07-30-2011, 06:49 PM   #33
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The roll is noticeable. anywhere from 100-200rpm range.
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1993 Coupe - turbo 351w, DIY turbo kit, DIY AOD w/ 4r70w guts, Silverfox Valve Body
2012 Best 1320' 1.47 60' | 6.52 / 107.0 10.197/133.39 12psi
2013 Best 660' 1.40 60' | 6.37 / 107.9 11psi
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Old 07-30-2011, 06:53 PM   #34
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yeah you might have to tweak the fuel a bit and in the spark table you should add some advance if you didn't already in the bin right before idle that should help smooth things out.
so you if you idle at 900 rpm at 16* of advance make a bin before that lets say you make a bin before idle at 700 rpm make that bin 22-23* that should help out a bit.
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Old 08-01-2011, 09:02 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 93gtman View Post
... if you idle at 900 rpm at 16* of advance make a bin before that lets say you make a bin before idle at 700 rpm make that bin 22-23* that should help out a bit.
I've read Matt's idle tuning article on DYIAutoTune several times just didn't think to apply it until you said something. It was spot on man! I readjusted my timing scale on the X axis of the timing table to bring in 700rpm and 900rpm columns. Threw 23* in 700 and 16 in 900. Works like a champ. Idle differentiation is around 50 rpm. brought the afr up to 14:1 and still hold a smooth idle. Very nice sir, very nice.
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1966 Mustang Coupe
1993 Coupe - turbo 351w, DIY turbo kit, DIY AOD w/ 4r70w guts, Silverfox Valve Body
2012 Best 1320' 1.47 60' | 6.52 / 107.0 10.197/133.39 12psi
2013 Best 660' 1.40 60' | 6.37 / 107.9 11psi
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