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Old 04-19-2011, 07:57 PM   #1
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96 Starts, then immediately dies

I've got a 96 4.6 that I'm using in a transplant, I've been staring at wiring diagrams and the EVTM for the past few weeks and have gotten to the point where I can put power to the ECU, the fuel pump fires up, I hit the starter, and she'll fire up...for a second. Applying more 'gas' doesn't do the trick to keep it running, it's like the injectors are only firing when the starter is engaged. Are there any sensors that are disabled during the 'start' mode I could be overlooking, or that could be damaged? I've got a full harness in the engine bay, but there are still a few plugs empty from A/C, the carbon canister, etc. Any help is greatly appreciated!!
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Old 04-19-2011, 08:22 PM   #2
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sounds like PATS, is the theft light flashing when you start it?
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Old 04-19-2011, 08:58 PM   #3
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Hmmm....since the PATS light signal comes off the PATS control module (which I don't have...) I guess I do not see any blinking light. Is this unit something I HAVE to have? I was digging around for other people's 4.6L swaps and didn't hear any mention of them having problems with the PATS system (or bypassing them) , I was hoping if it wasn't communicating with the PCM, it would be A-OK...

I guess the second question from this is did they all come with PATS? Was it by any chance a factory option, and if they all came with it, why can I start the car, and then it dies (I believe it's the injectors not firing, as I still have spark until it physically stops turning over and the fuel pressure is good the whole time).

I was just checking my EVTM and 20-1 shows a wire across where the anti theft controller module is if it's "without anti-theft". It looks to me like the only thing the TATS and PATS do is keep you from sending a 12V signal to your starter. Is that correct??

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Old 04-23-2011, 09:35 PM   #4
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So, I got a new (to me) ECU, PATS, Ignition Transponder and Key all from the same vehicle.

AND there is no change; it still fires up for a second, then dies. I hooked up a light to the 'theft indicator' wire from the PATS controller, and it doesn't blink at all. (not during KOEO, or cranking or any other time) I would have thought it would blink at SOMETIME, like a system check at least.

Any ideas? Does this picture look like it should work, the way I have the key situated in the transponder ring?

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Old 04-24-2011, 02:31 PM   #5
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Sounds similar to what my '98 GT did when the IAC went bad, except applying throttle would keep it running. I also had similar issues when my MAF went out. If you've got spark and there is fuel coming out of the injectors, then the last ingredient in the triangle is air...you might want to check out those components.
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Old 04-24-2011, 03:48 PM   #6
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Were you able to keep it running when your MAF went out on you? (By revving, etc?) I know it fires the injectors a few times, but I don't know that it keeps firing them. I do have pressure on the rail though.
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Old 04-25-2011, 12:04 PM   #7
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So I built a noid light last night to check the injectors, it fires them for about 1.5 sec then stops (which in turns stops the engine from running) but it keeps sparking until the engine physically stops rotating.


???????????????????????
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Old 04-25-2011, 05:19 PM   #8
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Will a 97 Expedition or F-150 ecu work (and is it confirmed they did NOT come with PATS?)? Does anyone have a pinout of either of those ECUs? Thanks!

What should the voltage be going to the transceiver module? I think it's only like 3 or 4 volts during key on, engine off. It doesn't sound right to me, does anyone know?

ALSO: the Anti-theft light does not blink ever.

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Old 04-25-2011, 10:33 PM   #9
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running? Sometimes?

So.....update is now it will randomly start. Like maybe once out of every 20 tries. How odd is this? Any suggestions?
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Old 04-27-2011, 07:12 AM   #10
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yellowoctupus:

Loose ground? Crank position sensor or the harness that connects it to the PCM?

Intermittent stuff is tough to sort out (like you don't know, lol).

GL and keep us posted with progress.

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Old 04-27-2011, 08:42 PM   #11
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Thanks Chris, it seems every car I have ever owned has crazy intermittent electrical problems...argh TFI units....glad this doesn't have one. I think the one thing I REALLY want someone to answer is if the PATS system is problematic, will the car start at all? I've found Ford PATS paperwork that says if the engine runs for 1 second then it's not a PATS problem, but some people are saying they can get their car to start, then die, start then die, which is my problem. If it's not a PATS issue, then by all means I want to stop looking at PATS and start looking at something else!! If you put in a non transponder key, give it a twist, will it fire up at all? Even for a second?
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Old 04-28-2011, 07:24 AM   #12
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yellowoctupus:

My (slim) understanding of PATS is that it will not let the fuel pump run at all if PATS is activated. PATS looks at the key and if the key does not match then you can crank the engine all day long but PATS will prevent the fuel pump from running. Can you hear the fuel pump run for a couple of seconds when you turn the key to ON (not all the way to crank/start)? I don't understand why the PATS light is not coming on. It should light like the other instrument cluster lights do when the key is ON. I am away from my GT at the moment so I can't go out, turn the key, and describe what my dash does.

Just for an experiment, you can have a flat metal key cut and it can be used to crank the engine. Since it is not a PATS key, it will cause PATS to activate and the engine will crank but will not start (at all). This will prove whether PATS allows 1 second of running or nothing at all.

Since your engine starts once in a while, do you think there is a bad ground somewhere? How about your battery? Is it strong?

HTH,

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Old 04-28-2011, 10:50 AM   #13
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Well....I'm actually not even using the stock ignition switch, I'm manually powering the leads on the switch, so in this case I can 'turn on' the car with the PATS key removed from the HALO. Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to make much of a difference for me. I'm hoping someone with a good running vehicle and a non-pats key can try this out. It isn't making any difference for me whether the PATS module is even plugged in or not, I can always start the car for a second.

PS. Good battery, everything is directly grounded to the block with new ground wires/connections.
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Old 04-28-2011, 04:11 PM   #14
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Were you able to keep it running when your MAF went out on you? (By revving, etc?) I know it fires the injectors a few times, but I don't know that it keeps firing them. I do have pressure on the rail though.
Revving it would keep it going for a short while, but it wasn't driveable.
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Old 04-28-2011, 05:38 PM   #15
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yellowoctupus,

Thanks for the info about the grounds and battery. Good to hear that these can be ruled out.

If PATS hardware is disconnected then the PATS switch has to be turned off in the tune.

Chris
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Old 04-28-2011, 06:25 PM   #16
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My 96 WILL allow the car to start with a non-PATS key, the THEFT light then blinks and the car dies (1-2 sec.) the THEFT light continues to blink.
Initially inserting the key and turning to the ON position, the THEFT light comes on with all other lights, (CEL, BAT etc.) then goes out until turned in the start position, then what described above takes place.
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Old 04-28-2011, 07:53 PM   #17
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1+ 8111870
That was exactly what I was looking for. I probably have a bad PATS module I'm guessing, since I only get it to start once in a blue moon, and no blinking lights EVER.

Chris,

How do you suggest changing the tune on the ECU? I don't really want to purchase a $300 tuner if I don't have to for a one time deal. I'd gladly toss somebody a few bucks if they'll disable a few things for me in the ECU, I'm not planning on playing around with it really once it's running later. (EGR, PATS, Rear 02's).

Thanks!
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Old 04-30-2011, 07:05 AM   #18
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yellowoctupus:

Your plan sounds very reasonable. You will have to do some searching for a kindly tuner but they are out there.

Chris
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