e-85 information

[neoxaero]

I'm looking for information related directly to running E-85 in my 94 stang..

I'm tossing around the idea of setting up my next motor to run E-85... Should let me run a little more timing and boost.. Its fairly easy to find around here..

How much of the fuel system would I need to replace?

I'm currently running a walbro 255lph in-tank pump.. stock lines, stock rail...

How much more fuel flow is required for E-85 over 93 octane gas?

Will I need to swap to a different fuel tank? Lines? Filler tube?

I realize that gas currently has about 10% ethanol in it, but at that concentration it should have a minor effect on any of the materials... vs running a much higher %

What is stoich for e-85??

[rckng1]

e-85 is a great race fuel just like alcohole or methenal-s itty millage
we have to use it in our work cars now because of politics and our milliage has dropped by 20 to 30 persent. however a poupously built motor with either boost or 12 to 1 compmight do a lot better on it
later
rick

[exoskeleton]

what exactly IS E-85?

[66mustfb]

neoxaero,

E85 stoich is 9.87

[neoxaero]

This is all information I've picked up over at http://www.e85performance.net ... Though I haven't had much success finding any concrete numbers regarding fuel flow and such and I still haven't gotten any response to my questions over there either

Summer blend: E-85 is 85% ethanol 15% gasoline -- its roughly 105 octane...

Winter blend: E-70 which is 70% ethanol, 30% gasoline... roughly 98 octane

Now I know you need more E-85 than you do gasoline to make power.. and you'll typically see a 20-25% drop in fuel mileage from conventional gasoline...

E-85 though allows you to run higher compression (see octane rating) or more boost, with more timing... So you're able to get more power out of a motor (its great for boost from what I've read)...

E-85 burns much cooler so it has the same basic effect as a water/methanol injection kit, the alcohol also evaporates at a lower temp which also lowers the combustion temp... again, allowing for more boost/timing/compression

What I'm having trouble finding is how much more fuel flow I need to run E-85 vs pump 93....

Once I get my pump gas tune dialed in for daily driving, I'll probably swap over to E-85 and get the car re-tuned if its needed (likely will from what I've read) and then dial it in..

Since I don't leave home without my laptop, not being able to find E-85 isn't a problem since I can just change the tunes if I need to, or run pump gas on the E-85 tune (and just run rich)

[Speedy911]

Originally Posted by 66mustfb

neoxaero,

E85 stoich is 9.87

So with E85, boosted people should aim for 8.0ish on a wideband?

[neoxaero]

Originally Posted by Speedy911

So with E85, boosted people should aim for 8.0ish on a wideband?

I think the wideband has to be calibrated for ethanol.. most wide bands peg @ 10:1 A/F on gas...

I also found a plethora of information on turbobricks.. Alot of the info is vehicle specific.. but they do have some interesting information regarding e-85 alone...
From what it says on that site you need roughly 30% more fuel with e85 than you do with gasoline... so if you're near maxing out your current fuel system, you'd have to upgrade to get where you'd need to be to run E-85...

Link:
http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=73061

[Matt Cramer]

Widebands measure oxygen, not fuel. If the gauge is calibrated for gasoline, the AFR you see will be the equivalent gasoline AFR and you'd tune it like it's running on gasoline. There's a few gauges that can be recalibrated for other fuels - and in theory you could recalibrate an analog AFR gauge by putting a new set of numbers on its gauge face.

[Speedy911]

Originally Posted by Matt Cramer

Widebands measure oxygen, not fuel. If the gauge is calibrated for gasoline, the AFR you see will be the equivalent gasoline AFR and you'd tune it like it's running on gasoline. There's a few gauges that can be recalibrated for other fuels - and in theory you could recalibrate an analog AFR gauge by putting a new set of numbers on its gauge face.

So if I empty my tank out right now, and fill it with E-85 and don't change my wideband I should tune for 11.7, like I did with gasoline?

[neoxaero]

From everything I've come across (on other sites) that's pretty much it

Just make sure you have enough overhead in your fuel system to support it

But you'd probably want to aim for something a little less rich as 11.8:1 on a gas A/F meter would be like... 7ish:1 on the E85

[my8950]

You target the same A/F with your gasoline WB, if you are shooting for 11.7:1 on gasoline, then do the same on E85....If you target 7:1 on your WB with E85, I'd bet the car would have a realy hard time running, if at all...
You can run the same fuel tank, but you'll really be out of pump with using that 255, because thats exactly what I did. I even got a boost a pump and it didn't help too much. I'm planning to use 2 255's though, one to run around normal on, the other will come on when the ECU sees boost, along with the boost a pump to kick up the voltage. To be safe, figure you'll need 45% more fuel, to be safe! You shouldn't really need that much, more like 35-40%, so you'll want to have a buffer and some room for degradation of parts, etc....
All of my fuel system has been modified, so I am not sure as to how yours will hold up, I've got all stainless/TFE hose, -8....

[66mustfb]

So...a person should use lambda, duck the whole "what's stoich for this fuel" issue?

[my8950]

On an N/A car yes, if its boosted, then it'll need to be richer then lambda. Even an N/A car at peak tq will be richer then lambda....
But yes, read the WB as it is, shoot for gasoline numbers, then sensor is reading oxygen, and set up for gasoline, unless you're using a Ethanol type sensor...

[66mustfb]

If I've gotten it right a lambda of one (1) for any fuel is stoich. So you don't need any conversions (stoich for e85 vs stoich for gasoline...), just set your wide band to output lambda values to tune correctly. Less than 1 and you are rich, more and you are lean for whatever fuel you are burning. This will also take care of seasonal fuel mixtures.

I'm using an Innovate LC-1 and it can be programmed to output lambda values as one of several choices. I assume this is true of most aftermarket wide bands.

[trickflowgt]

I dumped my walbro 255 and went with an aeromotive a1000 set up. The only problem I'm running into is e-85 tends to clog the filters more easily than gasoline. What I did to combat that is put an additional -6 line on a tee fitting in between the pump and filter. I ran that line up to the engine bay next to the regulator so that I can monitor the pressures before and after the filter. I'm still pulling down about 18 mpg on it.

[my8950]

Thats because the alcohol is cleaning all the crap out of your fuel system. It should stop clogging your filters soon, keep an eye on them...

[Matt Cramer]

Originally Posted by 66mustfb

If I've gotten it right a lambda of one (1) for any fuel is stoich. So you don't need any conversions (stoich for e85 vs stoich for gasoline...), just set your wide band to output lambda values to tune correctly. Less than 1 and you are rich, more and you are lean for whatever fuel you are burning. This will also take care of seasonal fuel mixtures.

I'm using an Innovate LC-1 and it can be programmed to output lambda values as one of several choices. I assume this is true of most aftermarket wide bands.

Correct, lambda is the same for practically anything that'll burn. The only time you run into trouble is with fuels that aren't hydrocarbon based, like pure hydrogen. We even had a customer manage to run an LC-1 on a woodburning stove.

[Rsnake50]

Originally Posted by trickflowgt

I dumped my walbro 255 and went with an aeromotive a1000 set up. The only problem I'm running into is e-85 tends to clog the filters more easily than gasoline. What I did to combat that is put an additional -6 line on a tee fitting in between the pump and filter. I ran that line up to the engine bay next to the regulator so that I can monitor the pressures before and after the filter. I'm still pulling down about 18 mpg on it.

Aeromotive has a 40 micron stainless post pump filter element to replace the 100 micron paper element that will become fouled with organic matter from the enzymes in the ethanol. We had an even worse issue with E98 but since the new filter I've had no issues at all.

[CantStopSpinning]

What is your current set up?

[stangjumper]

I will add my input:

I switched over to E85 a few weeks ago on my weekend car, fully built 352 turbo setup.

On my setup I needed about 15% more fuel at idle and about 25-30% more fuel at WOT.

I am using a WB caled for gasoline. I had an A/F at idle of 14:1 and 11.2:1 at WOT with gasoline. When I started it up for the first time the WB was really lean (I forget the exact A/F-16:1?). I added the 15% (approx) for idle and got my idle back to 14:1 on my gasoline WB. The engine smoothed right out back to the way it was on gas.

I have a 90 Mustang that has a decent shape tank with after market everything in the fuel system. I checked the before/after filters on my setup after 2 tank full tanks of E85 and they were clean, no debris in them at all, and the last time I checked them was about 2 years ago.

The motor does seems to run cooler with the E85 and it is more forgiving for a leaner A/F.

The engine is hard to start when the temp goes down. Like 40* and lower. I had to add quite a bit more fuel and timing during startup to make starting easier.

I put down almost 800RWHP when I ranout of injector. There was a lot more left in my setup and turbo.

I would recommend the E85 switch if you an get the fuel local to you. Around me it is selling for about $1.80 a gallon now. 93 is $2.25-$2.30ish. Withthe lose of fuel economy running the E85 it is just about a break even for the price difference. BUT with the higher octane it is WAY A HEAD of the 93.

I kept reading how the motor will tolerate more tming with the E85. Well on my setup the engine could run more timing but didn't want or need it. It made good HP with low timing.

Oh and it smells different out the tailpipe. Kind of sweetish (is that even a word?)

Bottom line: try the E85 if you have it local to you and also if you can retune for the extra fuel needed.

[neoxaero]

good info! thanks a ton!!

I've decided to hold off on going to E-85 till i build my next motor for my car -- dont know what my fuel requirements will be.. but i'll have to goto low imp injectors and dont wanna spring for a controller right now.. not to mention a bigger fuel pump and injectors.. lol

[stangjumper]

My friend is selling his AEM low impedance driver if your interested.

[marked for life]

my8950 What inector size and rwhp do you make ? Anyone have injector duty cycle for different size injectors at say 6000 rpm for different rwhp say 400/500/600 rwhp on e85? I also have the 255 and kb boost a pump and stock rails and lines and I am trying to determine which injector's to buy. The motor made 360/480 on a dyno jet on gas but i also have nitrous to add on top of this, 150 shot... I was leaning toward 60 lb injectors. Its its a 2.2 kenne bell car.

[my8950]

Right now, I've got 42's, but not so sure on just how much power it makes. I was limited this past season due to not enough fuel pump. That blower is not as efficient as a turbo, so you'll probably need more pump for sure, at the least. The 60's might be ok, I can try to check it out and see what my calculator suggests.

[marked for life]

Did you ever get that 2nd pump in yet ? What is the weight of your car and do you have an et & mph ? How about some WOT timing numbers and some of your car spec's, i'm very interested in the e85 since i got to pull the motor apart (head gaskets) and can make some changes at this present time. What kind of car do you run?

[stangjumper]

On my 352 turbo setup running E85 AND meth injection I had the following D/C's running 83's set at 50psi base.

505 RWHP 6000rpm 5.5 psi 50% D/C
550 RWHP 6000rpm 7psi 57% D/C
??? RWHP 6000rpm 9-10psi 62% D/C
787 RWHP 6000rpm 15psi 80% DC At 7300rpm on this pull I was over 90% D/C

All a/f's at a rich 11.1:1

IMO those stocks rails and lines won't be enough. Not sure about the pump??????

[marked for life]

Thanks stangjumper., Thats some extremely impressive numbers on e85 (2.20$ a gallon) i'm really surprised there isn't more interest in this fuel unless there afraid there is not enough e85 retail outlets out there. I have a MarkVII with a 22 gallon tank, plenty of capacity. Stangjumper its hard for me to figure my fuel needs with you at 83 and 50 base. I plan on running 15lbs and 50/50 meth injection. now i'm really confused about my needs using 60lb/39psi base injectors. My rwhp should not exceed 520 hp on nitrous...With that said do you think I might need rails ???

[stangjumper]

The problem with E85 is it is not available everywhere. I am luckly to have 2 stations that sell it within 2 miles of my house. The next station is about 25 miles away. It is going for $1.84 a gallon right now by me.

My 83's are flowing about 89lb's at 50psi.

I would run 75% meth and 25% water in your meth kit. You do not need all of that water. The water is in there to cool the air and combustion chambers. With E85 everything runs cooler for 2 reasons. First you are pumping more of it in and second the alcohol draws out more heat. You can run 100% meth but if you spill it it will take the paint off. The 25% water will make it a little less agressive. It will tame the meth down some. It will be easier on everything. PLUS the 75% meth will add a little more to you fuel system making it act bigger. Also the limiting factory of how much meth you can inject is the water. By running less water you can run a bigger nozzle thus injecting more meth (fuel). That will help your fuel system out a great deal as well as adding even more octane.

All of my dyno pulls were using 75/25 meth/water. I wish I had 100% in the tank so I could have added another 1/2 lb of boost and hit the 800RWHP #.

Are you going to be running a wet N02 kit? And you are looking for 500RWHP WITH the N02? What size N02 kit are you going to run? Stock block? (I think you know where this last question is going )

[my8950]

Originally Posted by marked for life

Did you ever get that 2nd pump in yet ? What is the weight of your car and do you have an et & mph ? How about some WOT timing numbers and some of your car spec's, i'm very interested in the e85 since i got to pull the motor apart (head gaskets) and can make some changes at this present time. What kind of car do you run?

The second pump is not in yet, even if it was, I've got snow on the ground, and its only been up to about 30 here for a high randomly, not to mention the tons of salt on the ground.
As the car sits, its at about 3100# with me in it.
Timing where I was able to run it at about 5psi, probably 30*. The 1 pass I made with it last summer, I think it went 113 or 115, cant recall exactly. That was shifting at 4k though, so it should be better this time around.
It is an 89, 306, single 70 p-trim....

Having the heads off is not really anything to do with E85. You can run it on anything given the ability to tune the fuel flow.

[marked for life]

I got a blown head gasket so thats why the heads are coming off. As far as the nitrous its a 175 dry shot but I only used 125hp so far. Yes it is a stock block and I do know of its proneness to splitting. My one concern with switching to a 75/25 mix is the fear of hanging or over revving and floating a valve causing an intake explosion with the fuel being ignitable over a 50/50 mix though i'm not sure if this fear is justifiable. My total rwhp will be 520 with the nitrous flowing and yea i'm flirting with diaster but I will be conservative on the timing and my rpm will be under 6000 rpm...Stanger what size nozzles are you running? I have a 10 gph in the kenne bell discharge manifold and a 6 gph into the inlet manifold. I plan on putting a 12 gph injecting into the inlet for a total of 22 gph...

my8950 do you plan on upping the boost? and if yes where are you going to set your wot timing at? Would 26 degrees be considered conservative for e85 with a 125 shot of nitrous though I would work my way up from 20* and watch the mph... What do you think also stanger?

[my8950]

Originally Posted by marked for life

my8950 do you plan on upping the boost? and if yes where are you going to set your wot timing at? Would 26 degrees be considered conservative for e85 with a 125 shot of nitrous though I would work my way up from 20* and watch the mph... What do you think also stanger?

Yes I'll turn it up once I get the tank figured out and back in the car. As for where, I'm not sure just how high. It will be limited to trans, and fuel setup again. I'll have to ease into it and determine where I can run it. I dont plan to just crank it up and hope for the best...So that will also have an effect on what timing I'll run.
I'm not running E85 though just to run more timing to make more power. Basically running it because I have the ability to change my fuel settings, and for the benefits of cooling it gives when burned. I'll probably run the same 22-25* regardless...

[stangjumper]

Originally Posted by marked for life

I got a blown head gasket so thats why the heads are coming off. As far as the nitrous its a 175 dry shot but I only used 125hp so far. Yes it is a stock block and I do know of its proneness to splitting. My one concern with switching to a 75/25 mix is the fear of hanging or over revving and floating a valve causing an intake explosion with the fuel being ignitable over a 50/50 mix though i'm not sure if this fear is justifiable. My total rwhp will be 520 with the nitrous flowing and yea i'm flirting with diaster but I will be conservative on the timing and my rpm will be under 6000 rpm...Stanger what size nozzles are you running? I have a 10 gph in the kenne bell discharge manifold and a 6 gph into the inlet manifold. I plan on putting a 12 gph injecting into the inlet for a total of 22 gph...

my8950 do you plan on upping the boost? and if yes where are you going to set your wot timing at? Would 26 degrees be considered conservative for e85 with a 125 shot of nitrous though I would work my way up from 20* and watch the mph... What do you think also stanger?

I have never used N02, but I have tried everything else LOL.

I am running one Snow 675ml nozzle which flows about 900ml with my 150psi pump. I was thinking about adding a second 375ml nozzle before the TB like the first nozzle.

I don't think you are going to have enough fuel system to run a dry kit, that's just a guess though. I would not get hung up on the timing. Just let the engine have whatever it likes to make power and run safe. At 15psi I am "only" running 18-20* of timing. Anymore and my motor started to lose power. Just because you can run more timing does not mean that you will make more power.

What are you using to tune?

[marked for life]

As far as tuning I had my car tuned by lasota located in Ohio with an sct eliminator chip and the only other tuning is turning up my fuel pressure with an adjustable reg and turning up the voltage with my Kenne Bell boost a pump. The N2O has an adjustment to the fuel also by changing a fuel jet to control fuel pressure, this is not the same as the N20 jet. Also tuning the old fashion way by just turning the distributor. I tune by a wide band but the exciting thing going on now is I just bought the brand new Moates quarterhorse another a9l computer to install the chip in and will be datalogging boost and exhaust gas temps along with everything eles with this new chip doing "live tuning"...I have every thing bought and am just waiting for the weather to improve to go back to work on this car...

[393Bird]

E85 is some nice stuff. Been using it for 2 years now, and love it.

http://members.tccoa.com/392bird/e85.htm

I am running a blow through carb with a Vortech YSi.

[stangjumper]

Originally Posted by marked for life

As far as tuning I had my car tuned by lasota located in Ohio with an sct eliminator chip and the only other tuning is turning up my fuel pressure with an adjustable reg and turning up the voltage with my Kenne Bell boost a pump. The N2O has an adjustment to the fuel also by changing a fuel jet to control fuel pressure, this is not the same as the N20 jet. Also tuning the old fashion way by just turning the distributor. I tune by a wide band but the exciting thing going on now is I just bought the brand new Moates quarterhorse another a9l computer to install the chip in and will be datalogging boost and exhaust gas temps along with everything eles with this new chip doing "live tuning"...I have every thing bought and am just waiting for the weather to improve to go back to work on this car...

Unfortunately I don't think you are just going to be able to adjust your FP to compensate for the E85. I know on my setup as well as my friends that we added quite a bit more fuel during WOT than idle and cruise. If I remember correctly we added about 15% more fuel at idle and 25% at WOT. That gave as the same A/F we were tuning with for gasoline.