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Old 10-12-2007, 01:21 AM   #1
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GT vs. Cobra ABS

What is the difference between the GT ABS module and the Cobra ABS module? I was told that the only real difference is in the predictive braking algorithm the Cobra uses.
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Old 10-12-2007, 02:13 AM   #2
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Okay, you saw the following thread:
http://www.corral.net/forums/showthr...&highlight=ABS

Quote:
Originally Posted by DRRummel View Post
Seems that not all Cobra ABS modules have four output channels. I was going to use a friend’s 1996 Cobra ABS unit, but he tells me that it only has one line to the rear. Anybody know which years used two lines to the rear? Is it possible to get the four wheel independent ABS w/o traction control?
As I understand from those that do OT/CT, the later the years, the better the algorithm for ABS braking. That makes sense since CPU speed increases, PROM size increases, and knowledge of many different real-life barking possibilities increase.

See below for more info:

Last edited by stangPlus2Birds; 10-12-2007 at 02:24 AM.
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Old 10-12-2007, 02:18 AM   #3
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Wow, the 96-99 Cobras DID have a *3* output channel ABS!

I don't know if this google cached link will work:
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=2&gl=us


1 9 9 6 - 2 0 0 1 S V T C O B R A T E C H N I C A L D A T A
(Data is similar for 1997 - 1999 models)
1996 -1999 models
Front: 13.0 in. (330mm) vented disk, PBR twin-piston caliper
Rear: 11.65 in. (296mm) vented disk, single-piston caliper
ABS: Bosch, three-channel, four-sensor system


Seems like in 2001, the Cobra went to the
Four channel, four sensor system. Linked to all-speed traction control

So, I'd say that you would want the 94/95 Cobra ABS for 4 independent output channels. Now, I may go look into getting a 96-99 Cobra ABS unit. That will work better with my Cobra brakes than the GT unit I have now, and I won't have to run a new hard-line, then rubber-line, to the rear axle.

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Old 10-13-2007, 10:43 AM   #4
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Is it just the ABS computer you need, or the whole pump system too?
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Old 10-13-2007, 01:22 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huesmann View Post
Is it just the ABS computer you need, or the whole pump system too?
For a Fox3 conversion you will need both. I do not know if you can retro fit a Cobra ABS module to a GT pump setup. (if they have the same number of outputs.)
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Old 10-14-2007, 08:40 AM   #6
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No, I have a '98 GT with ABS.
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Old 11-07-2007, 09:55 AM   #7
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Guys, I'm wanting to implement ABS on my 1992 Fox Mustang. What are the parts needed to implement it? What years are the best ABS systems for me? Is there truly a difference between the GT and Cobra systems?

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Old 11-07-2007, 10:55 AM   #8
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do a search on username Patrick Olsen and search term ABS* (include the asterisk) as he installed ABS on his fox and documented it fairly thoroughly if I recall.

Last edited by MFE; 11-07-2007 at 10:58 AM.
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Old 11-07-2007, 11:13 AM   #9
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First, you need an sn95 front and rear setup with the speed sensors on the front hub and rear axles. That also means you'll need 5-lug sn95 rims.

For instructions on the FRPP M2300K Cobra brake system for a Fox, see:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/downl...htM-2300-K.pdf


For the ABS install:
http://www.corral.net/tech/handling/abs.html

Like I said, you need the 94/95 ABS units. The Cobra units are better if you have a Cobra brake system. But, you'd need to run another line to the rear brakes.


In other words, it's NOT a trivial or simple thing to do and you MUST be very good at doing DOUBLE flares for brake lines and making your own brake lines.
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Old 11-07-2007, 12:37 PM   #10
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Very good article sP2B, just some final questions:

The ABS unit is basically standalone? As in, it doesn't need any input from the computer? Just give it a power feed, wire it to the brake switch, wire a light, and wire the sensors directly to it? Nothing else?
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Old 11-07-2007, 01:11 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fox racer View Post
Very good article sP2B, just some final questions:

The ABS unit is basically standalone? As in, it doesn't need any input from the computer? Just give it a power feed, wire it to the brake switch, wire a light, and wire the sensors directly to it? Nothing else?
Correct. The 94/95 Stang ABS is 100% stand-alone. All it needs is power, ground, wire to the brake switch, wire to a light, and wires to the sensors. There is no connection to the EEC/computer.

I also added a wire to a switch to do a self-test - a good idea. I used the tacky Fox fog light panel as a place to put my self-test switch and ABS light.
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Old 11-07-2007, 01:34 PM   #12
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The 94-95 Cobra ABS uses 4 input signals but only has 3 outputs. Both the left and right rear brake lines T into one line coming from the ABS unit down the chassis to just above the rear axle. Hence, there is no way to have independent control of the L&R rear brakes. Only the latest Mustangs with TCS (Traction Control System) use 4 channel outputs. I believe that occurred starting around 99 or 01 and newer SN95's and, of course, the S197's.
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Old 11-07-2007, 02:34 PM   #13
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I installed the ABS from a 95 GT in my 93 Coupe and it was a 5 on a 1-10 scale. I sourced everything off the 95 GT and I believe I paid around $800 for everything when it was all said and done. I used an article written by a friend from the Dallas area. His write up is on another friend's website:

www.chicane23.com

It is under the tech articles tab.

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Old 11-07-2007, 03:18 PM   #14
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Thank you guys! This forum is fantastic!!
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Old 11-07-2007, 03:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stangPlus2Birds View Post
I also added a wire to a switch to do a self-test - a good idea. I used the tacky Fox fog light panel as a place to put my self-test switch and ABS light.
WOW. Beautiful idea. I wish I could take credit for that. I might have to do that.
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Old 11-07-2007, 03:21 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d brune View Post
I installed the ABS from a 95 GT in my 93 Coupe and it was a 5 on a 1-10 scale. I sourced everything off the 95 GT and I believe I paid around $800 for everything when it was all said and done. I used an article written by a friend from the Dallas area. His write up is on another friend's website:

www.chicane23.com

It is under the tech articles tab.

Darren
Is that the article Mark wrote?
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Old 11-07-2007, 03:44 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glenn View Post
The 94-95 Cobra ABS uses 4 input signals but only has 3 outputs. Both the left and right rear brake lines T into one line coming from the ABS unit down the chassis to just above the rear axle. Hence, there is no way to have independent control of the L&R rear brakes. Only the latest Mustangs with TCS (Traction Control System) use 4 channel outputs. I believe that occurred starting around 99 or 01 and newer SN95's and, of course, the S197's.
I thought that the 94/95 Cobras had a 4-channel output ABS. I can't find my '95 Ford service cd, so I can't say for sure now.

From the Ford service 96+ DVD, for 96 & 97, it "looks" like the ABS units are similar to the 95/95 ABS units. But, I thought from when I saw a few of them on ebay, they were different. But, now there are a few units on ebay that look like my 95 GT unit.

It seems that the 94-98 ABS units may be interchangeable? That's what I thought before. But, when I looked, I though the 96-98 units were different. ARGG! Who knows.

Well, I just ordered a 97 Cobra ABS unit from MPS. So, we'll see. Note: MPS sells their Cobra ABS units for $150, even though car-parts.com shows them listed for $100. MPS sells the GT ABS units for $100.

It'd be great if I could put in a Cobra unit! But, with my setup, it's *many* hour effort to replace the ABS unit. I have it crammed in between the battery and MC - where the coil and starter relay used to be. Oh well, something else to do during the winter.
Very old photo:
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/jo...bsCtrView3.jpg

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Old 11-07-2007, 04:07 PM   #18
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1996 Cobra ABS has 3 outputs

I know for a fact that PGreenSVT's ABS module is a three output unit. This is on a 1996 Cobra.

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Old 11-07-2007, 05:05 PM   #19
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Yes, Mark Bettin.

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Old 11-07-2007, 05:51 PM   #20
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How is the self test switch wired? Through the power wire? What's a good power source anyhow?

If I decide to do the swap over to ABS, it's only going to be after I find a 94/95 GT (do V6s have ABS?) That I can take all the parts from, such as the lines from the MC/PV to the Pump and the Pump lines to the calipers (for the front at least). I already have front and rear sensors (IRS came with them, 95 GT spindles came with them).
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Old 11-07-2007, 06:14 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fox racer View Post
How is the self test switch wired? Through the power wire? What's a good power source anyhow?
It's all in the article.

I did the same thing. I used a wire with a big fuse connected to battery post on my starter relay for the main power. Then, I used a wire with a small fuse connected to a "power when running" wire for the on wire. For diagnostics, you ground a wire. I think that the Ford wiper motor has a "hot when on" wire. I think I used that for my wireless remote radar detector. I didn't know about that wire when I did my ABS.


Some V6's had ABS. But, it was an option. So, it was more often on GTs. Also, didn't the V6's have smaller brakes than the GT? If that's the case, then the ABS is programmed for those smaller brakes. The ABS know the max deceleration rate for the brakes on that particular car. ABS will also activate BEFORE the wheel locks ups. In fact, it's suppose to activate BEFORE the wheel locks up. Still, the ABS tries to keep ~3->10% slip at the tire(s). Also, IMHO, if you're braking hard enough to activate the GT ABS, there's a very good chance that a wheel would have locked up.


*I*'ve head very few times where my ABS kicked in before a wheel was going to lock up. But, that's because my ABS will only activate when I go over the typical POS New England roads with out HUGE *SS potholes and I have to brake quickly. Or, in the winter when I drive the car when the roads are "good". By "good", I mean that the roads are clear except for the black ice that is at EVERY stop sign in my neighborhood. Also, black ice is at other places on the road because of road and nearby (often shady) conditions. Also, parking lots just plain suck! The reduction of the use of salt and trying not to throw mega tons of sand on the roadways are some of the reasons for more black ice on New England roads. The sh*tty plowing jobs that have become common is another.

IMHO, driving in New England during the winter without ABS is just plain stupid! Yea, one wheel hit black ice. So, without ABS, you can keep braking and have the car be steered by the braking, or you can let off the brake and DIE and KILL other people. Hmm, great choices. With ABS, you just keep your foot on the brake and maybe let up a little on the brake. Note: with a *Stang* ABS, the other wheels still get the pressure from brake pedal. But, not all ABS systems are like that when active!

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Old 11-07-2007, 07:51 PM   #22
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The GTs and V6s in the SN95s have the exact same brakes, no difference. But thanks for the info, good stuff. Trust me, NYC streets aren't much better when it comes to potholes etc...
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Old 11-07-2007, 10:14 PM   #23
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Quote:
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The GTs and V6s in the SN95s have the exact same brakes, no difference. But thanks for the info, good stuff. Trust me, NYC streets aren't much better when it comes to potholes etc...
Gee, the Fox GTs had POS worthless brakes, but even the sn95 V6's had real brakes? I'm suing!


I have the low-end cheapo Delco-IV ABS on my '92 Olds. THAT ABS system is really the reason why ABS systems are now pretty much standard. It's cheap, "slow" (rates of a few times a second), and did I mention cheap.

One day, we had freezing rain in the early AM, followed by snow. As I drove to work, I slowed down on a downhill to turn left. That was on a 2-lane road and there was a line of semi's coming in the other direction. Of course, the center of the road had frozen ice covered by fresh snow. NOT GOOD! The left wheels on my car just skidded on glare ice. The car veered into the other lane, right into the path of the oncoming trucks! YIKES! Thankfully, that "cheap *ss slow" ABS did what it was suppose to - it pulsed the required wheels, and I was able to control the car and to control the steering of the car! I steered into the next driveway on the right-side of the road, and parked the car. I walked the ~1/2 mile to my company. There was no way I was going to tempt fate again.

I think to this day, that day had the highest number of accidents in Mass' history!

Yup, that "cheap-*ss slow POS" Delco-IV saved my life!
BTW: In the 80's, I drove a tow-truck during a State-wide shutdown because of the blizzard. No ABS, and even the limited slip rear-end barely worked. So, I'm very used to driving in the snow and bad conditions. But, like on that day, there are times where things are hidden or unknown.

Good Luck!

ABS Rules!
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Old 11-07-2007, 10:21 PM   #24
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BTW: I should get my '97 Cobra ABS next week sometime. It may be a few days, or until the next weekend before I can plug my car's harness into the '97 Cobra ABS controller and make sure that it's the same. When I get the unit, I'll be able to tell if it's the same physically on the outside. I have a spare 95 GT ABS controller in my basement.
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Old 11-08-2007, 10:40 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stangPlus2Birds View Post
BTW: I should get my '97 Cobra ABS next week sometime. It may be a few days, or until the next weekend before I can plug my car's harness into the '97 Cobra ABS controller and make sure that it's the same. When I get the unit, I'll be able to tell if it's the same physically on the outside. I have a spare 95 GT ABS controller in my basement.
This is a three output channel unit right?
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Old 11-08-2007, 10:01 PM   #26
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Quote:
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This is a three output channel unit right?
Yup. Well, according to my Ford service DVD it is.
Also, from what I remember/thought, the 94/95 Cobra ABS unit was the only Stang 4-channel output ABS before '99. I'm pretty sure all of the 96-98 ABS units were 3-channel. The issue is/was the connector wiring and the physical location of the brake lines. And, car-parts.com seems to think they those years (GTs) are interchangeable. But, the cross reference list is all screwed-up. Places have Cobra units listed under GT, and they have GT units listed under Cobra. So, who knows for sure.

Someone either here or on CC (CT driver) has gone through/tried a number of ABS units over the model years. From what he said, the laster (97 & 98) Cobra units were more aggressive and better. That makes sense since the processor speed, algorithms, and accurately known car characteristics would all likely improve over time.

So, going by my Ford service DVD, car-parts.com, and what I could see on ebay, I figure it's worth the chance. I'd really like a Cobra ABS unit. My (M2300K - real kit) brakes and ABS kicks *ss as it is. But, I am thinking of upgrading my front brake calipers. So, a Cobra ABS would be nice to have. Plus, that would give me 2 GT ABS units as backup. That should be good for enough for the next 10+ years.

I figure that I'll get it on Monday or Tuesday.
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Old 11-09-2007, 12:37 AM   #27
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sP2B,
I asked because I was hoping you were going with a 4 port unit. I, stupidly, bought a brand new 99 Cobra unit "w/o traction control". A previous BOSCH employee said that he believed that if the ABS controller could not talk to the ECM, it would fall back to the independent mode. I was hoping to find someone with a working 4 port system that could swap my unit in and test that theory.

Also MFE, you should check with Patrick Olsen, while his walk though is great, I don't think he has had the time to get it actually working. I think he is still running it disabled.
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Old 11-09-2007, 08:40 AM   #28
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Where you are going to see the majority of the ABS units going into Fox cars is in the NASA AI series. I have wired one and helped on the complete install on another car. Both have the GT units, one with Cobra brakes (upgraded rotors and pads) and the other had the Griggs/Sierra brakes. We talked about which units would be more aggressive and my buddy did not want to risk experimenting with a new setup and have less braking than the other cars on the track. I would be really interested to hear if the later Cobra units are in fact more aggressive and if the four ports are even better.

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Old 11-10-2007, 10:57 PM   #29
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Sounds like you are more in touch with the right people then I am. If you find someone running a four output unit, I would be glad to ship my unit to them for a week of testing in their car.
Quote:
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Where you are going to see the majority of the ABS units going into Fox cars is in the NASA AI series. I have wired one and helped on the complete install on another car. Both have the GT units, one with Cobra brakes (upgraded rotors and pads) and the other had the Griggs/Sierra brakes. We talked about which units would be more aggressive and my buddy did not want to risk experimenting with a new setup and have less braking than the other cars on the track. I would be really interested to hear if the later Cobra units are in fact more aggressive and if the four ports are even better.

Darren
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Old 11-11-2007, 11:49 AM   #30
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I will give a couple of guys a shout and see what they are running. The two I helped on are the three port like mine. If you have not checked on www.corner-carvers.com as suggested earlier you should. Read what you can and only post if you are 100% sure you are not asking a question asked before or it is well thought out. Lets just say they smell blood in the water like sharks.

Darren
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Old 11-11-2007, 12:34 PM   #31
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I have not been particular successful with getting past the big meanie at the front gate of www.corner-carvers.com. I have sent the 'Shasta' PM and I might be just waiting for activation..., or not. If I can't get past the sign up test, I doubt I will survive in those waters.

Thanks for checking around on the four port issues.

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I will give a couple of guys a shout and see what they are running. The two I helped on are the three port like mine. If you have not checked on www.corner-carvers.com as suggested earlier you should. Read what you can and only post if you are 100% sure you are not asking a question asked before or it is well thought out. Lets just say they smell blood in the water like sharks.

Darren
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Old 11-11-2007, 09:14 PM   #32
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You will get an email in about a week or two once you register. Once you get that there will be directions on what you need to read and then you will send the admin an email confirming you have read it. Then its a waiting game. Pretty much they treat you having a login as a privilege. If you post up something stupid they will yank it in a heartbeat.

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Old 11-13-2007, 03:54 PM   #33
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Yes, this must be the TENTH time I've said this:
MPS SUCKS!!!!!

Those &*(*&(&*( sent me a 95 GT ABS unit!!! On the invoice, it says "97 Mustang ABS". I said OVER and OVER again that I wanted THE 97 Cobra ABS unit they had listed.

And, as I said, even though they had the the Cobra ABS unit listed for $100 on car-parts.com, I was told that the GT ABS units were $100 and the Cobra units were $150! So, I paid $150 for the ABS unit.

So, I repeat:
MPS SUCKS!!!!!

BTW: Hear that PPI? So, when I tell people to make sure they get the right part, and PPI says they never send out the wrong part because "they've been a Mustang used parts supplier for 15+ years" that means NOTHING when you have incompetent staff! Again, I want to remind people that it was MPS, *not* PPI that screwed up.

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Old 11-13-2007, 04:28 PM   #34
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If you paid for it with your credit card report it as fraud to your credit card company...will definitely get the vendor's attention.

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Old 11-13-2007, 04:50 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stangPlus2Birds View Post
Yes, this must be the TENTH time I've said this:
MPS SUCKS!!!!!

Those &*(*&(&*( sent me a 95 GT ABS unit!!! On the invoice, it says "97 Mustang ABS". I said OVER and OVER again that I wanted THE 97 Cobra ABS unit they had listed.

And, as I said, even though they had the the Cobra ABS unit listed for $100 on car-parts.com, I was told that the GT ABS units were $100 and the Cobra units were $150! So, I paid $150 for the ABS unit.

So, I repeat:
MPS SUCKS!!!!!

BTW: Hear that PPI? So, when I tell people to make sure they get the right part, and PPI says they never send out the wrong part because "they've been a Mustang used parts supplier for 15+ years" that means NOTHING when you have incompetent staff! Again, I want to remind people that it was MPS, *not* PPI that screwed up.
I couldn't agree with you more. MPS not only have a crappy staff, but the price gouge like it's a sport. They wanted $150 for front dual piston PBRs and an additional $300 a piece for 95 GT spindles. Then I got quoted 95 GT spindles, with 95 GT brakes (CRAPPY), rotors and lines for $375. I would never do business with those guys, even if it was a LAST resort. Unless they drop their prices, I don't even look at their website.
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