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Old 07-27-2005, 09:18 AM   #1
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AOD REBUILD HAS BECOME A NIGHTMARE.. No overdrive.. ARGH!!

This has been a great few days let me tell you.. I rebuilt the transmission and valvebody and last night I get everything bolted up.. get a pressure gauge hooked up to the TV port and was going to drive around and check the pressures while driving.. while driving the HOSE BREAKS.. spewing ATF all over the road.. leaving a smoke screen down the road.. get home and lift the car.. undercarriage is COVERED with ATF.. Ok Fine we will ditch the gauge.. Put back in the TV plug and I take the car out again... It'ss shifting early and soft.. and will not shift into overdrive unless I accelerate up to 60 and then LET OFF and then it will shift but then as soon as I give it any gas it slips back down into 3rd.. (brand new band and an A+ servo) so I take the car home... adjust the cable.. pull out all the slack.. (in fact I pull it as tight as it would go to start out with) the shifts were finally HARD like they ought to be (baumann shift kit).. but the shift was way high in the RPM range (cable is a little TOO tight then) BUT it STILL won't shift into overdrive.. unless I speed up and let off and then it engages very very very softly.. again I have an A+ servo and a modified valvebody.. the 3-4 shift used to PIN you against the seat...

WTF??? Do I have a stuck valve in the valvebody?? wrong band? (too long? won't engage properly) Stuck servo? I guess it can't be a stuck servo because it engages but not firmly enough to hold for ****...

Manually keeping it out of overdrive the AOD runs and shifts like a dream!!!!

but WTF is up with the OD band.. is there any adjustment for the band!?!?!
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Old 07-27-2005, 11:21 AM   #2
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THANKS.. I come on here hoping for help and get this

I'm just so tired I have been working every night after work till 10 trying to get the car going and then I worked all weekend.. Got to bed last night at midnight only to get up at 5.. Just tired of having to borrow cars and want something to drive.. Just frustrated.. I figure it is a stuck valve.. but don't know EVERYTHING about the OD system to know what else it could be besides the servo or shift valve it's like it isn't getting enough line pressure but every other gear IS..
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Old 07-27-2005, 11:36 AM   #3
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a disconnected or missing TV linkage. If the TV linkage is disconnected the transmission should default to full TV pressure which will make the transmission shift as if it were at Wide Open Throttle all the time. It is also possible that the TV valve in the valve body is stuck in the high pressure position. The easiest way to see if this is the case is to perform a TV pressure test.

You could also have a stuck governor, or a stuck 1-2 shift valve. If the governor is sticking it will cause a delayed, or no upshift, depending on how bad the condition causing the sticking is. If the 1-2 shift valve is stuck, and will not stroke, the transmission will not shift out of first gear.
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Old 07-27-2005, 11:45 AM   #4
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how is that od servo piston seal???
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Old 07-27-2005, 11:55 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_fresco
a disconnected or missing TV linkage. If the TV linkage is disconnected the transmission should default to full TV pressure which will make the transmission shift as if it were at Wide Open Throttle all the time. It is also possible that the TV valve in the valve body is stuck in the high pressure position. The easiest way to see if this is the case is to perform a TV pressure test. You could also have a stuck governor, or a stuck 1-2 shift valve. If the governor is sticking it will cause a delayed, or no upshift, depending on how bad the condition causing the sticking is. If the 1-2 shift valve is stuck, and will not stroke, the transmission will not shift out of first gear.
TV linkage is connected and is set (well, it's definately not set too low, lets just put it that way!)

Od servo and governor were both cleaned, checked over, relubed with vaseline and reinstalled.. the valvebody was gone through and relubed each valve, checked for freedom of motion of each valve, and reinstalled.. i don't doubt it might have a stuck valve.. the 1-2 valve (even though it was well lubed) stuck at first until it got enough ATF run through to free it up.. I'm thinking the 3/4 shift valve is stuck, or not seeing full stroke.. because it is applying pressure just not well... it shifts fine in all the other gears and kicks down just fine, the downshifting coming to a stop are a little rough but it is still a little dry.. the more I drove it, the LESS I felt it stick...

Going to pull the valvebody tonight (ugh) and recheck the 3/4 valve.. I think I am also going to pull the servo just in case.. I know that A+ is going to be a BITCH to put back in upside down (i've done it before.. not fun)

This has happened before.. I let the car sit for a while (couple of weeks) and the 3/4 valve STUCK in the bore.. and wouldn't shift at all.. had to drive it to my parents house in 3rd and pull the valvebody to free up the valve and then it was fine.. never stuck again.. hoping that is all it is this time.

I just pray I didn't burn up the BAND!!!!
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Old 07-27-2005, 11:58 AM   #6
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Call Lentech and speak to Len or Chris.

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Old 07-27-2005, 12:01 PM   #7
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I had a tranny that took a few minutes of driving in 3rd before it would go into OD after a fresh rebuild.
My uncle also had one from Lentech that did the same thing. I don't know if yours is showing signs of being stuck as it is actually shifting, just not correctly.(?)
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Old 07-27-2005, 12:35 PM   #8
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IT sounds to me like you are on the right track....if the other gears are reacting correctly then it's probably not the TV or govenor. The OD band is new...rule that out (for a day or two). This leaves the servo or valves.......hope thats it!

I just got my new convertor in, and I bit the bullet and ordered a stamped steel direct clutch drum yesterday so I could use the swank Alto red 8 clutch pack I bought with my kit. So, I have to wait a few more days untill the parts come in and I can get this thing back together.

While I am here, I have one burning question:
There are 2 large steel rings, one has the bent ends and keeps the sungear shell and anti-clunk spring inplace......the other has no bent tabs and is just slightyl smaller in diameter.....were the heck does this thing go! I looked through the ASTG page by page several times and there is no mention of it? This is the only part I can't seem to place correctly.
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Old 07-27-2005, 12:46 PM   #9
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HEHEHE I know, I know ATSG doesn't cover it but my Technical Videos - AOD rebuild video DID!!! .. the BIG snap ring isn't reused.. it was something they used on the assembly line and that was it.. take it out... throw it away.. you'll be fine!!

BTW I found my anti clunk spring just sitting in the insides of the transmission case on disassembly!!!! I can just imagine if that found its way into the planetary
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Old 07-27-2005, 01:34 PM   #10
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Ouch! How did that work its way out? I thought that the cavity it slips into was closed off by the large snap ring? was that still in place? Maybe it was put in the wrong place last time it was put together? Do you know where that other ring was placed durring assembly? Both of my AOD's had it, and I wasn't paying close enough attention when I started pulling the internals out...
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Old 07-27-2005, 02:45 PM   #11
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I don't know HOW the spring came out.. maybe the snap ring shifted in the case allowing the spring to pop by.. I DEFINATELY put it back in so it won't come out again.
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Old 07-27-2005, 02:46 PM   #12
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the other snap ring (I think) went BEHIND the reverse band in the back of the case..
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Old 07-27-2005, 03:48 PM   #13
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DOH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


**** man!
that sucks!



Quote:
Originally Posted by dj fresco
disconnected or missing TV linkage. If the TV linkage is disconnected the transmission should default to full TV pressure which will make the transmission shift as if it were at Wide Open Throttle all the time. It is also possible that the TV valve in the valve body is stuck in the high pressure position.
NEGATIVE RAMPART!
on all counts.
tv pressure has no default setting, it's zero if not connected.
nearly impossible for the tv valve to be stuck in the WOT position, that spring is not really weak, it would have to break for this to happen.

a stuck 1-2 shift valve would not allow the trans to shift into second, so scratch that.
stuck governor, well it would never downshift...

scott, i *think* that since you have had a problem in the 4-3 shift valve once before from trans sitting (which should not happen, cars sit long periods without this happeneing) I think your 3-4 shift valve bore, or valve itself has a bur causing it to hang up when it rotates in the bore....maybe. maybe sometimes it did not rotate, and all worked well, and others it gets hung up?

if you have your tv pressure set real high (40-50 @ idle) it may not go into od EVER, unless you let off...........if the tv is seeing 3/4 throttle, then of course it wont go into od....and if it did, it would be like when your on the freeway doing a buck twenty, and try to let it go into od when you slightly let off the throttle....it just kinda slides in, and as soon as you give enough throttle to maintain that buck twenty, it slides right back out..............


did that make sense?

hope ya get er figgered out, but i would lower the tv pressure till you only have about 1/8" tension on the cable when snapped into the tbody.............worth a shot.
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Old 07-27-2005, 03:54 PM   #14
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Well when I first test drove it it shifted sloppy and wouldn't go into OD very well.. get back and the cable had slack in the end where the crimped lug is at.. so I went ahead and tightened it up all the way (as a starting place to adjust it from) and took it back out and the 1-2 and 2-3 shift felt perfect although the timing was off (too high) and it STILL wouldn't go into OD very well so it isn't a TV related issue (I dont think) it is a valving issue.. since it slid into gear (barely) with low pressure exactly the same way it did with HIGH pressure... especially when the other gear changes felt 100% better once I adjusted the cable.. then the 3-4 didn't change at all.. something is STUCK.. BAD!

I'm not going to touch it tonight.. I am too tired.. I'll be back at it tomorrow night..
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Old 07-27-2005, 03:57 PM   #15
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HO...

I had a similar problem years ago...

sometimes it has to do with the 4-3 backout passages and that damn TV valve that the lever works by the selector valve...

that little passage that Baumann and all the others block with the rubber/metal plug is the kickdown passage for the 4/3 shift...if any fluid get into that passage...then it kicks you out of O/D...

pull the VB...then pull the gasket off of it but dont separate the plate...

check the hole and slots around the kickdown hole and where the plug was installed for any openings that the fluid can get by...it may be an alignment issue with the plate

I would also backtrack the kickdown passage to see if any of the associated valves are stuck as well...it should be a fairly straight forward track back to that TV valve...

AOD'S just don't like to go into O/D...

(i'm still waiting for your secret to getting that neck-snapping O/D shift you HAD...can't believe your having these problems...your usually the "knight in shining armor"...are you smokin dope...??? just kidding)
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Old 07-27-2005, 04:23 PM   #16
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just had another thought...

Double check your shift valve adjustment as well...

The only thing that actually makes a difference between the o/d and D setting is the open space on the actual valve...the opening lets the fluid into the afore mentioned kickdown passage when in D...in O/D, it closes this passage off and allows the fluid to exhaust and causes the tranny to shift into O/D...assuming the 3/4 shift valve has operated properly. obviously...

if the shift linkage is adjusted a hair off...then it may be allowing the valve to crack open a bit when the shifter is in the O/D position...

test it by just moving it out of D and see if it works better...if so, then its linkage related...


will ponder some more...
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Old 07-27-2005, 05:11 PM   #17
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The shift linkage is A'OK. I double checked it... When I would accelerate and the let off, allowing it to shift into OD.... when it would start to slip I would IMMEDIATELY pull it manually back into D... and it would downshift back into 3rd along with the fact that I ran it through all the gears and made sure all the detents/shift positions were correct..

Thanks for the idea though.. and keep them coming...
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Old 07-27-2005, 05:14 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 351Freak
just had another thought...

Double check your shift valve adjustment as well...

The only thing that actually makes a difference between the o/d and D setting is the open space on the actual valve...the opening lets the fluid into the afore mentioned kickdown passage when in D...in O/D, it closes this passage off and allows the fluid to exhaust and causes the tranny to shift into O/D...assuming the 3/4 shift valve has operated properly. obviously...

if the shift linkage is adjusted a hair off...then it may be allowing the valve to crack open a bit when the shifter is in the O/D position...

test it by just moving it out of D and see if it works better...if so, then its linkage related...


will ponder some more...
HEY, excellent point.

Will have to store that in the brain for future refrence!
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Old 07-27-2005, 05:18 PM   #19
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Still waiting for silverfox and MACX to reply.. hehehe

IT'S NOT THE GOVERNOR I SWEAR!!!!
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Old 07-27-2005, 05:39 PM   #20
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Not likely, but maybe the OD servo pin isnt seated correctly on the band? Might not be applying full pressure.....I would think though that if it werent right it would either enage, or not.....
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Old 07-27-2005, 05:49 PM   #21
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a weak shift into 4th and a quick down shift are "classic signs" of fluid in that kickdown passage...

causes:

1) a gouge in the passages allowing fluid in...
2) a ripped/torn paper gasket...
3) improperly torqued separator plate/VB... (you did use a in/lb torque wrench...right...?? or at the very least, some sort of method to make sure ALL of the bolts were tightened the same...)
4) stuck 3/4 shift valve that is allowing the passage to "energize" once pressure starts to build

question...is that a new shift kit in it...did it have that "plug" to allow full throttle upshifts...if so...double check the ht. of the plug and make sure its letting the separator plate lay flat

fluid leaks suck...

Awww...screw it...drop the VB and go buy a manual one from Lentech and be done with it...heheheeeee

1-2...screeeeech
2-3... screeeech
3-4... bump/whirrrr (head snaps...neck breaks...input shaft twists into a twizzler...yeehaw...)
film at 11...funeral tomorrow...

sorry...couldn't resist...
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Old 07-27-2005, 05:58 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickster666
Not likely, but maybe the OD servo pin isnt seated correctly on the band? Might not be applying full pressure.....I would think though that if it werent right it would either enage, or not.....
this has some merit to it...

if the pin is off the seat and to the side...engagement pressure will be way down and slippage will result...hmmmm

but...you would think an offset pin would cause some sort of binding action that would result in the band hanging in either the "engaged" or "disengaged" state...not letting it transition smoothly between the 2...


but if the band wasn't SEATED correctly on the holding pins...and the piston wasn't able to compress the band enuf to tighten it properly around the drum...then it would slip also...almost as if the O/D servo pin was too short (so to speak)...that sounds feasable...

I'm thinking the tranny needs to come out for disassembly to double check the hard parts...and if everything is OK...then move to taking the VB apart for cleaning (again...???)

aren't the VB's supposed to be relatively cheap nowadays...maybe get a new one and redo the shift kit...
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Old 07-27-2005, 06:27 PM   #23
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My guess would be a stuck valve in the valve body. I did a Trans-Go shift kit back when I had an AOD and it would shift into overdrive even when you were holding 3rd gear. If your car won't go into overdrive at all it's probably a fluid/valve problem. my 2 pennies

good luck, Matt
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Old 07-27-2005, 07:55 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_fresco
I was not hating. There is constructive critisism and there is starting a thread like that which sounds like: you dont know what your talking about you idiot.
I would disagree on the hating part..........LOL


anyhoo, I been around here a while, and have a thick skin. If i was calling you an idiot, or flaming ya, I would not beat around the bush....I would just come out and say it. So don't read more into my posts than I say.......Because I probobly did not maen it that way.

Hard to "read" the infliction in my "voice" when reading what I typed, no?


anyhoo, telling someone tv defaults to max pressure might have a newb or two disconnecting their tv cables to raise the pressure, this MIGHT be a problem!


anyway...............wayyyyyyyyy off topic.


post up what ya find tomorrow scott, got my fingers crossed it is one of the easier things to fix!

If need be, I do have an extra 89+ valve body as a core if you need one.
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Old 07-27-2005, 10:30 PM   #25
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Not trying to beat a dead horse ....but, If you disconnect the TV cable AT THE TRANNY, not the throttle body (or carb) it will default to full pressure...if the spring inside the tranny is functioning that is.
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Old 07-28-2005, 01:23 AM   #26
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i agree with 351 even if hes joking. get a lentech VB atleast. if not start to look into a whole unit. i love mine so far!
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Old 07-28-2005, 09:50 AM   #27
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If I had the money, it'd go full manual.. but this an emergency situation here.. LOL Like I said the car had been parked for almost a year.... and then I up and wrecked my daily driver. So I have NO car... So I HAVE to take a car that hasn't ran in 6 months and get it fixed as quickly as possible.... JUST TO HAVE SOMETHING TO DRIVE.. Once I get it up and running then the mods can come... Right now I am about to just throw in a new OEM valvebody TO GET THE CAR RUNNING.. Then maybe install a new baumann shift kit into the car.

BTW I do remember a valve (I think it is the 3/4 valve) was STUCK in the bore and I had to take some needle nose to pry it out.. Then had a hell of a time getting it so go back in.. what should I do.. I know when you pull the valve.. you check the edges for burrs with your fingernail.. but what do you sand it down with and what do you do if the burr is IN the BORE... Pretty sure that is what it is and that is what is the problem

BTW NEVER NEVER NEVER USE THE PAN GASKET IN THE TRANSTAR REBUILD KIT.. I THINK IT'S SOME CARDBOARD DERIVED GASKET AND LEAKS LIKE A FREAKIN SIEVE!!!! USE CORK OR RUBBER ONLY!
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Old 07-28-2005, 10:01 AM   #28
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I am going to have to agree with myself here, and yourself about the burr in that bore.........seems this is where you problem is now, and once was before...I think another vb is an excellent idea....do you have any rebuilder places that have cores? A new oem vb has gotta be $$$, no?


as for the pan gasket, i used the one in the transgo kit, cuz the transtar one looked like ass to me........of course, if i did not have two to choose from........
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Old 07-28-2005, 10:37 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rickster666
Not trying to beat a dead horse ....but, If you disconnect the TV cable AT THE TRANNY, not the throttle body (or carb) it will default to full pressure...if the spring inside the tranny is functioning that is.
I read that but I don't see how? I thought the when the cable was pulled it PUSHED in on the valve increasing like pressure so how could 0 pressure on the valving = full pressure?!?!
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Old 07-28-2005, 10:41 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nosmatt
I am going to have to agree with myself here, and yourself about the burr in that bore.........seems this is where you problem is now, and once was before...I think another vb is an excellent idea....do you have any rebuilder places that have cores? A new oem vb has gotta be $$$, no?


as for the pan gasket, i used the one in the transgo kit, cuz the transtar one looked like ass to me........of course, if i did not have two to choose from........
OEM valvebodies are around $100 believe it or not.. but my transmission guy doens't have any.. he can get me one but he said he would have to order like 10 of them... to get me one.

I used the transtar pan gasket because it was FLAT.. lol and cork gasket was all folded up in the box still I should have known better.. but the pan has to come back off tonight.. so it will be all good.. I will just replace the gasket with the cork on and be done with it.
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Old 07-28-2005, 12:19 PM   #31
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yeah...sounds like a plan...

now...

time until LittleHO snaps another shaft from an enthusiastic jaunt to work...2 days, 5 hrs and 23 minutes...

what's your guess...???
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Old 07-28-2005, 12:46 PM   #32
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Try Kenny's transmissions, they are located off of Tom Drive. When i still had my automatic i had him do some work on it. He knows these transmissions inside and out. I brought him my car with half of my transmission torn apart and he had it back together that evening. He is a real honest guy also. Good luck.
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Old 07-28-2005, 01:00 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 351Freak
yeah...sounds like a plan...

now...

time until LittleHO snaps another shaft from an enthusiastic jaunt to work...2 days, 5 hrs and 23 minutes...

what's your guess...???
Just gotta learn to stay away from those hard 4-3 downshifts... (must contain road rage!!!!!!!)
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Old 07-28-2005, 02:41 PM   #34
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HHMmmm...I coulda sworn I posted in here yesterday on page one. Has the Corral has been acting a little funny for anybody or is it just me ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 351Freak
Awww...screw it...drop the VB and go buy a manual one from Lentech and be done with it...heheheeeee
This is what I said and did after I got fed up with my AOD problems. Like I mentioned before, the only failure I had in a dailey driver ( snow, rain, whatever was out there) over the ourse of several years. Was the broken 1-2 input shaft. I still had 3rd and OD running of the center shaft I was able to drive the car home in 3rd the car home.
--
MYLITTLEHO,I also have a couple of stock VBs on the shelf, one is the 1-D-OD-N-R-P version and the other is 2-D-OD-N-R-P out of a police spec AOD. If ya want one to modify, the regular one is good. The police spec VB has a different shift valve, at least on the 1-2 shift valve. The 1-2 shift valve is made up of 2 parts, they kinda fit inside of each other. The standard 1 piece shift valve WILL not transfer to the 2 piece shift valve VB. The 1-2 shift on the police VB is whatever the governer is set at ~4000 or. Start in D and bring up the revs. Push the shift lever down 1 detent to engage 2nd and bring the revs. Then shift back to D for 3rd. This does not hurt the AOD like the '1-2-1 shuffle' does.

I have a factory repair manual for the fox chassis LTD which includes a section on the police and regular AODs. Factory diagrams and everything, I see if my old scanner will work on the new Dell or if I have to dust off the Emachine. Drop me a PM if you need them

I might also part with one of my manual VBs. In my garage I have the built C4 and a police spec Fox chassis LTD. That LTD has a police spec AOD and the other full manual PA VB This is what my 8.2 deck 3fifty7 will be going into.

nosmatt, that LTD does not even make the 'sig'. I pulled the cast piston 308 out ( still got it, using the oil pan on the 3forty7!!) Its got a ghetto rebuilt factory forged piston 302 ( my first shortblock build ), stock '87 cam, E5 heads, Performer intake and 600 cfm carb. Also has an MSD 6AL, Durasparl roller cam dist., MAC shorties, MAC H-pipe, MAC catback, and FMS 'high effort' rack and pinion unit, are among the items installed on this car. It was last driven in '94 or '95 and needs TLC. That was during my bar hopping days, living the life of a 20something and having lots of fun in my car. I put several years of driving in that car. Some of it doing some assinine things in. Girls, booze, the kid stuff.

You're talking about irons in the fire ???? I'll be that old guy with all those super rare parts in the garage and a dozen hotrods in the backyard. Hell, I have 2 running modded cars right now that are 19 and 20 years old. My '85 GT was bought from a junkyard as salvage and was brought to me by forklift . It had a minor bump in front, so minor the fenders did not get damaged. No title or anything like that came with it and it was flatbedded home from the yard. I've had LEGAL plates on it for about 3 weeks and it's become the 'driver' now. Love the T-tops in the hot weather.

Even before I even thought about the internet or buying a computer, I was screwing these cars together. Back in '89 I had an '84 Cougar 5.0 that I added a Performer 302 cam, very mildly ported '66 289 heads, Weiand intake, adapted a 2bbl carb from a 400M and ran 2 1/4 duals off the log style exhaust manifolds that exited in front of the rear tires. Mufflers were those noname cheapie turbo mufflers. That was my first modded car and it was fast for that time.

Got kinda winded typing that, but that Cougar had an AOD that had a kickdown rod instead of a cable setup. I had a Ford tech setup the Duraspark igintion and set up the AOD. This was almost uncharted territory in '89. I'm not sure how he got the rod setup to work or what it came from to work with the carb he choose. It did not look like anything Ford used on the C4 stuff. I did the '1-2-1' shuffle on that car every time I drove it. I did not know it could hurt it at that time.

I ended up totaling the car when I crashed into a parked pick up and left over 100 ft of skid marks. Yeah I was kinda speeding in the corner, but the ****ing rear flex line for the brakes popped and the front tires locked up. That was the only car that I totaled that was mine.

edit---noticed a few new posts. I've been away for a bit. Gotta "catch up".
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Old 07-28-2005, 03:18 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MYLITTLEHO
I read that but I don't see how? I thought the when the cable was pulled it PUSHED in on the valve increasing like pressure so how could 0 pressure on the valving = full pressure?!?!
This is not true

Howdy...been out of touch a for a week or two.

Oh...poor baby, lost OD......no problem, fortunatly when you loose ONE gear it is much easier to track down the problem than two gears.

Here is the list:
1) FRied OD band (it is new, so we won't count this)
2) OD servo (does it have new seals on the servo AND the cover? You did install the correct servo spring I assume)
3) VB sticky (this is one of the most common problems with the AOD VB, just becuase they move freely on the table doesn't mean they work after torqued. I know you have that video, and I know Mr. Mustache show how to de-bur and remove debris - if you remove ANY valve you risk messing up the AOD SOFT a-s-s aluminum
4) Detent (you said it was fine)

Somone mentioned the 3/4 cutback plug, that is possible. I have the SAME SITUATION with a MarkVII right now (your in luck) and I know I installed a cheap (sorry greg and karl baumann) home version of the Baumann kit. I will be "removing" the cuback plug tonight - I will report back on my findings. But I doubt that is it.

I can't help you out much more until you do the "electricians" solution. Electricians always replace somthing with a "known good unit" before diagnosing. As some have mentioned...might try a VB that you know works or is new.
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