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Old 12-24-2003, 12:08 AM   #1
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Where to get stock Mass air meter bored out?

Where can I get my stock Mass Air Meter bored out to 61mm? How much would this cost? Can anyone give me some info? Thanks

Bill
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Old 12-24-2003, 12:15 AM   #2
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Why would you want to do this? Wouldn't it throw your computer off (ie. more airflow then what it's calibrated for)?
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Old 12-24-2003, 03:20 AM   #3
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Just hop off your wallet and buy a meter. You can get one all day long for 100 bucks. It's not worth the headache.
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Old 12-24-2003, 08:50 AM   #4
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally posted by 92StangMan
Why would you want to do this? Wouldn't it throw your computer off (ie. more airflow then what it's calibrated for)?
I remember a test done YEARS (and years) ago in MM&FF between several MAF sensors on a completely STOCK 5.0 Mustang. I believe the MAF's used were the Pro-M 77mm, the C&L 73mm, the AutoSpecialties unit, and a bored out stock unit. These were the only options available at the time.

The bored out stock meter made the most power, followed by the C&L.

How can this be? Like 92StangMan said, boring the meter housing will affect the readings provided to the EEC by the MAF.

The EEC calculates airflow based on the amount of air that passes through the small channel where the actual sensing elements are. By increasing the size of the main channel, more air will flow through than the EEC calculates. Fords are tuned to be *rich* at the factory, so by letting in a little more air and leaning it out, power increases slightly.

Really, though, you shouldn't do this unless your engine is completely stock, and even then you'll be rolling the dice.

Pony up for an aftermarket MAF or keep the stocker until you really need to change it.

After a heads/intake swap on my 5.0, I ran it on the dyno with the stock MAF and a Pro-M 75mm Bullet. I gave up the Bullet for the stocker because the engine ran smoother with the stock unit. That cost me 4rwhp....I'd imagine it would be even less on a stock engine.

Good luck,
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Old 12-24-2003, 10:02 AM   #5
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any quality machine shop can bore it out.
bore'd stock meter (60mm's) gave my stock motor a nice flat 13.5:1 a/f ratio, measured on wideband dyno.
The $40(cdn) modification was worth a full tenth and 1mph in the quater.
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Old 12-25-2003, 09:16 AM   #6
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I had one of these years ago, when I first bought my 'Stang. The place in Texas that sells the pulleys did it--can't think of the name. Minimal improvement if any.
But as anyone on this board will tell you---it's no one thing, it's a combination of adding many things that make a difference. If you've got your heart set on a better MAS, get up about $150 & buy the C&L powerpipe---you'll feel the difference in the seat of your pants.
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Old 12-25-2003, 12:14 PM   #7
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Thanks for the advice guys. The bored out mass air meter is just one part of the combination I plan on having. This is the combination I want. It should be nice and streetable, but have some balls too:

Bored Stock MAF to 61MM
1" Phenolic Spacer
A really good pair of Heads(Not sure which ones yet)
Either the Stock or E303 Cam
1.7 Roller Rockers
Windage Tray
Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator
All of this on a completely rebuilt block
And a T-5 tranny

This is what I have:

3.73
Long Tubes and H pipe going through 2.5" Flowmasters
Underdrive Pulleys
BBK Cold Air Induction with K&N Filter
Stock Fuel injection

I figure with this combination should be able to break into the twelves, but still have really good street mannerism. Thanks again guys.

Bill
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Old 12-25-2003, 12:37 PM   #8
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The reason a stock 5L car mihght respond favorably to a bored stock MAF is that doing so would lean the car out some.. producing more power, as ford tends to tune the car a bit on the rich side for safety. That being said.. in today's aftermarket there really is NO reason to bore out a stock MAF, which is going to be inaccurate. In the days of $500 MAFs this was an alternative but today when you can get a ProM bullet for about $150 or a C&L even cheaper.. why bother?

Break the bank and save the cash... buy a real one.
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Old 12-25-2003, 09:52 PM   #9
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Agreed, especially with the kind of $$$ PaxNovi seems to be parting with to build his combo....heads/cam/intake...get an aftermarket MAF. All that might be a bit much for the bored-out stocker to accomodate.
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Old 12-25-2003, 10:52 PM   #10
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Much more safer ways of leaning out the mixture a bit. Computers can do wonders
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Old 12-26-2003, 01:34 AM   #11
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not for 40 bux they can't.
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Old 12-26-2003, 02:11 AM   #12
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I'm glad to see someone is seeing my side of things. The idea is for me to build a good budget engine. I plan on buying most, if not all of the stuff I want, used, and will trade for the others. Thanks for the help guys.

Bill
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Old 12-26-2003, 08:09 AM   #13
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I dont think mine was bored out, but it wasnt hurting me any (I hit 13.30 at 105mph). I got 24# injectors and a 75mm proM and I really cant tell much difference, infact it slowed down by a tenth the next time out at the track, hopefully, I have that fixed now with my adjustable f/p regulator.

If you do go with a bored maf and stock injectors, you still want/need to get a bigger fuel pump. I did the fuel pump before the maf/injectors and I had to replace the clutch after that, because it wasnt slipping much before but when I actually got some fuel to the motor, it burned it up the first pass. It seriously was worth the hour and a half it took me to put it in.
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Old 12-26-2003, 12:55 PM   #14
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WildBill,

What size pump would you recommend for my combo listed above? 190 lph? What do you think? Thanks

Bill
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Old 12-26-2003, 01:08 PM   #15
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Not flaming here.. but havent you ever heard of a car running well despite a part? rather than because of it.

With a good head/intake/cam combo are you going to keep the stock injectors? Why bother going for a 190lph if you dont really need it? I'm surprised you arent looking at 110lph.. on a budget and all.

Money wisely spent is not money wasted... money spent carelessly is. If you are going to stay with stock injectors.. then keep a stock bore MAF. The reason Auto Specialties used to sell bored MAFs, bored TB and EGR spacers is because back in the day there were not any acceptable affordable alternatives. But guess what.. its not 1991 now.. and there are plenty of alternatives and virtually no reason to use yesterdays technology. By the same token why bother with a set of aluminum heads when you can port a set of old 351s, maybe port a stock intake, or better yet try a truck intake?

I hope you see what I mean..
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Old 12-27-2003, 07:47 AM   #16
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PaxNovi 5.0


You want to build a "good budget combo"? Well a good combo is not what you are going to get. A bored meter is a crap shoot as far as it metering correctly. Shooting for 12's. I don"t see on your list an intake. Minimum 65 mm throttle body should be there. No injector upgrade? (can't do that with the stock meter) The stock ones are not going to support the HP you really need for 12's.

Also doe the name PaxNovi mean that you do have a blower?
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Old 12-27-2003, 08:01 AM   #17
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If your looking for a cheap mass air why not try this, for $5 what do you have to lose? Plus you get more mm without the risk of running lean.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2450450680
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Old 12-27-2003, 08:58 AM   #18
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I got a 190 lph pump. I would just say get the biggest you can dig up, but I am a fan of the 190+. The 10 dollar price difference is not really worth compromising on.

Ok, I will tell you for the combo you are making you do not need 24# injectors unless you just want them. Thats basically why I got mine but I seriously think I wasted my $ at this time. You can and will acheive your goal of getting into the 12s without 24#s. My way of looking at it was it was better to put the money into the motor up front and do the little external stuff later. Nothing cracks me up more then guys on here and on the base with stock block, E7s and intake and a 70mm t/b and 76mm mass air ect because they are about to bust loose any minute and put that blower and AFRs on. Yeh, ok, meanwhile I am actually running faster. Oh no, I dont have an MSD yet either, how is it even getting down the street?

BTW, I have been happy with my ported 289 heads for no more money then I have in them. Its all about $ versus what you want out of the car. If money wasnt an object do you think I would even be playing with small blocks anyways? NO. I can tell you there is a lot more left in my car right now. I ran 13.30 with the clutch slipping, Kumho street tires, and the stock fuel pump, meter and injectors and 3.55s. It was really starving for fuel and the next week I put that 190 in. I was a believer, the power was insane for just one part, so yes, it was running very well despite a fuel pump that was way too small. I'd do the pump up front, get the injectors when you get to it.

So, yes, I would put that motor together first how you want it, then if you want to get 24s later, go for it. Thats what I did. When I first got it together, I only had headers and open H pipe. I fixed that pretty quick but this is a rolling project.
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Old 12-27-2003, 10:02 AM   #19
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Listen to Adam...it's almost 2003 now, and not only has the aftermarket come a long way, so has knowledge of how these systems work. Boring the stock meter is a relatively foolish thing to do anymore because it introduces uncontrollable variables into how the computer calculates fuel load and timing, and there are relatively inexpensive ways to accomplish an improvement more effectively and more consistently.
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Old 12-27-2003, 10:29 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ninety_1_Notch
If your looking for a cheap mass air why not try this, for $5 what do you have to lose? Plus you get more mm without the risk of running lean.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2450450680
I wouldn't say "without the risk" of anything....you don't really know what you're buying here.

If this is a '93 Cobra MAF meter, then it can be simply bolted into a Mustang 5.0. Otherwise, who knows?
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Old 12-27-2003, 10:36 AM   #21
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If you put an adj FPR on a stock motor and drop the pressure a little, doesn't that lean out the mix as well? I think that would be a more safe way of getting more power from leaning it out than boring out a stock meter. Somebody clear this up for me please.
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Old 12-27-2003, 10:46 AM   #22
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20thAniv:

The following article should clear it up for you a bit...

http://www.mustangworks.com/articles...cAdaptive.html
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Old 12-27-2003, 11:47 AM   #23
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Thanks Nelson, that is exactly why bore'n the stock meter to 60mm's does work.
It provides 19% more air to the engine than the stock meter, but is within the computers 25% adjustability parameteres to compensate.

That explains perfectly why mine, with a bore'd meter mine had a nice flat perfect 13.5:1 a/f ratio... because the computer had it figured out all along.

So for $40 or less, if anyone knows how to add 19% more air to the system, I'd be interested in hearing it. Lets not forget that the stock meter is 55mm's, and the TB is 60mm's, and is the restriction in the inlet track.

Now, given Bill's plans of 'really good heads' and most of the suppporting cast, I dont think bore'n the stock meter is a good plan for him, but that does not make a bore'd stock meter a pile of crap for a mostly stock motor... provided it's been bored properly...
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Old 12-27-2003, 01:17 PM   #24
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Thanks, that was a pretty good article. So what all does the machine shop have to do to bore out the stock meter? I'm assuming just take the screens out and cut it bigger. Am I correct?
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Old 12-27-2003, 01:47 PM   #25
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yep.
i have heard 60mm is as large as you can safely go... but I've seen people on here go as much as 62mm's.
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Old 12-27-2003, 01:53 PM   #26
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http://www.chhservices.com/TJS/

Bores out stock mass air's, TBs (and makes new throttle blade)and egrs for reasonable price!

Quote:
Boring the stock meter is a relatively foolish thing to do anymore because it introduces uncontrollable variables into how the computer calculates fuel load and timing, and there are relatively inexpensive ways to accomplish an improvement more effectively and more consistently
So does installing heads, headers, less restrictive filters, intakes, larger TB's, etc. but everyone swaps these out?

Last edited by JoeDirte; 12-27-2003 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 12-27-2003, 02:08 PM   #27
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So no custom blade or anything like that? I'm asking because my uncle has a really good lathe, so I might have him help me out and it wouldn't cost me anything.
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Old 12-27-2003, 02:09 PM   #28
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DUUHHHHHH....nevermind, I just read what I actually wrote.
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Old 12-27-2003, 05:08 PM   #29
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I removed the center blade for a friends '01 camaro SS once. Seems that they dont have the aftermarket support we do. They say it leans it out and also causes the computer to give more timing?? I dont know about the timing part, but I do know it blew the dipstick out of car when he blew it up running only a 150 shot of nitrous.

They are also right that you can solve a lot of problems with the adjustable f/p regulator. So if its lean just turn it up some more. My point is just dont get to crazy with the stock meter in the first place, if you can do it for free go for it, but how many people on here are totally done working on their car. Ha ha. You can always get the big one later. Mine didnt have a screen in it, I doesnt look bored out though.
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Old 12-27-2003, 05:12 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by JoeDirte
So does installing heads, headers, less restrictive filters, intakes, larger TB's, etc. but everyone swaps these out?
Bzzzzzzzzt...

You are right in that heads, intakes, etc. do change the airflow entering the engine, but you still have a good MAF sensor letting the EEC know how much is going in.

If you have an 'altered' MAF and add to that a big increase in airflow (heads/intake/etc.), you can't be sure what the MAF is telling the EEC unless you get some dyno time with a wideband O2 to measure your A/F ratio.
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Old 12-27-2003, 05:38 PM   #31
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"You are right in that heads, intakes, etc. do change the airflow entering the engine, but you still have a good MAF sensor letting the EEC know how much is going in."

No you don't, installing new heads, etc will not produce the same amount of air going into engine as when stock stuff is installed (program was developed for stock stuff installed) if it did all you'd need to change is MAF.
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Old 12-27-2003, 09:07 PM   #32
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Read that again.....I was in agreement with you regarding the increase in airflow from heads & intakes.

Having an unaltered MAF will relay to EEC the proper voltages from which to calculate actual airflow.

If you have a MAF whose main channel has been altered with respect to the sampling channel, you can't be certain of what the EEC is being fed.

This might not be a problem with a stock engine, but once the greater the aiflow potential, the greater the "error" factor from the MAF.
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Old 12-27-2003, 09:45 PM   #33
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"If you have a MAF whose main channel has been altered with respect to the sampling channel, you can't be certain of what the EEC is being fed."

Exactly, if you think about it according to the EEC program the main channel is the 55mm MAF, stock TB, intake ports and head intake port. Altering anyone of these (plus exhaust) disturbs the program so going back to my statement you change any of these it's off yet everyone is quick to change these things and not worry about running lean.
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Old 12-27-2003, 10:00 PM   #34
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You write as though you are unaware that the MAF is what the EEC relies on most to determine actual airflow.

Yes, changine the heads/intake/exhaust/MAF all affect airflow capacity, but of those, ONLY the MAF is relied upon to tell the EEC how much air is flowing into the engine.

That's why you can change all these things on MAF equipped cars with little (if any) side effects. The MAF will ultimately let the EEC know how much air is flowing past it. This isn't the case in a SPEED DENSITY Mustang, which is why most are not "quick to change these things and not worry about running lean" in SPEED DENSITY Mustangs...

Now, whether you use a stock, Pro-M, or C&L meter, the sampling channel flows a known percentage of the main channel. Presumably, some engineer types have worked this out.

Now, what if the size of the main channel is increased? MORE air will flow into the engine than will be calculated. Thus, things can get a little lean.

From what we know, Fords are tuned nice and rich (and safe) from the factory, so leaning it out a little might be good for power.

However, if you've significantly increased the airflow potential of the engine, you have an even greater percentage of unmeasured air entering the engine....How do you know how much leaner it will be with the modified MAF? You won't...
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Old 12-27-2003, 10:05 PM   #35
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Check these out Joe:

Induction Blues

EEC Adaptive Control

They were written by someone who literally knows the EEC from the inside out!

Maybe they can explain things a little better than I can...
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