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Old 07-18-2007, 05:45 PM   #1
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A9L injector firing order change

Is there an easy inexpensive way to change the injector firing order from 13726548 to 15426378? I am using a A9L computer to control an EFI 460, and it has the same firing order as a non-HO 302.

Thanks
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Old 07-18-2007, 05:54 PM   #2
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bump for interesting question.
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Old 07-18-2007, 06:37 PM   #3
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I asked this question once before if there was any difference, and I was told that it would not make a difference.
Not sure if that is in any way correct though.

If it does in fact matter I would assume you could just switch the order of the injector pigtails just to be safe.
It would take about 5 feet of wire and some splicing.
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Old 07-18-2007, 06:55 PM   #4
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Do you have a tuning device like en EEC tuner or tweecer?
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Old 07-18-2007, 08:35 PM   #5
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Will one of those Tweecer programmers fix it? I wasn't really looking to spend that much for just a trail rig.
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Old 07-18-2007, 10:30 PM   #6
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The EEC-Tuner or Tweecer WILL enable you to do this...easily!

Using the EEC-Tuner...the parameter to change looks like this: You'd just change the order...
INJECTOR_FIRING_ORDER # Injector firing order
1 3 7 2 6 5 4 8
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Old 07-18-2007, 10:37 PM   #7
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Hmmm interesting....I guess I might have to go that route if I talk myself out of cutting up the injector harness. Also, I am sure that I cannot use the existing injector harness can I? Or will I need the one for a mustang? Also, I had a thought earlier about finding a computer from a 302 non-HO that was mass-air....did they make such an animal?
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Old 07-18-2007, 10:41 PM   #8
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Thats not the only thing you can do...you can tune using either! Forget getting meter re-calibrated etc etc...just build your mass air transfer function and tell it what size injectors and your set. Fuel, timing it's all easily changed! I love my eec-tuner...

I picked up 30rwhp and 27rwtq on the dyno!
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Old 07-18-2007, 10:59 PM   #9
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Ever heard of the ones selling on ebay for 185?
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:11 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goose347 View Post
Ever heard of the ones selling on ebay for 185?
No...Link???
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:15 PM   #11
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sorry, it won't let me paste a URL

item number 150142308696
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:58 PM   #12
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Swapping the injector plugs on the Sequential EFI cars won't work... the car may run, but not very well...
http://www.fordfuelinjection.com/?p=92

Can you change the cam in the motor to the right firing order?
When dealing with 5.0's, that is the best option - match the cam to the firing order of the ecu.
But, I don't know what cams are available for your 460.

In theory, the tweecer will allow you to modify the injector firing order, but I have not done this myself, or spoken to anyone who has. If you try this, use caution.

This could get messy, but would be worth trying if the cam option doesn't pan out.


just my thoughts,
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Old 07-19-2007, 12:12 AM   #13
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That ebay item will allow you to tune then burn a chip (I think) but I'm not sure exactly how it works...My bet would be once you burn the chip your done...you'd have to get another blank eprom to change the tune...also notice the extra $30 for the Ford kit...

Also, this prolly wouldn't fit in the stock ECU location or would require alot of modifications to fit...the EEC-Tuner fits right inside the stock ECU and fits the stock location no prob!
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Old 07-19-2007, 12:20 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goose347 View Post
sorry, it won't let me paste a URL

item number 150142308696
Godam ebay... the guy is just selling Moates gear!

Look here...
http://www.moates.net/index.php?cPath=25_35



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Old 07-19-2007, 01:21 AM   #15
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Cam change is not an option, I'm going through that much bs to do it...I know there has to be a way (interchangable parts ie Eli Whitney) to make it work....someone just has to figure it out....and I guess I am gonna try a few things and see what works now that I have some ammo...I'd also hate to spend 500 bucks for a programmer, when I'm almost done with the whole rig for 3K....that throws my whole bet out of the water....I will figure it out and let everyone know what my results are
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Old 07-19-2007, 01:31 AM   #16
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Please do let us know, I am pretty curious about this now...

By the way,
the Moates tuning setup would probably be less than $300, maybe closer to 200?

Cam change would be the very first option I would look at.
I know that will work, assuming the cam is available.

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Old 07-19-2007, 10:20 AM   #17
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I have run 460's for the last 12 years and have never heard of a cam like that...and to be honest, that is too much work and money....your talking pulling the motor on an F350, and the gaskets for an EFI engine are just stupid expensive....also my time frame, it has to be done and on the trailer by sept 17....and I just started fabrication last night....I think I will do some more research on other computers and see what I can come up with...I will be sure to post my results
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Old 07-19-2007, 12:59 PM   #18
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Look for a factory mass air 460 97 maybe 96 too
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Old 07-19-2007, 03:38 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goose347 View Post
Is there an easy inexpensive way to change the injector firing order from 13726548 to 15426378? I am using a A9L computer to control an EFI 460, and it has the same firing order as a non-HO 302.

Thanks
This is stupid easy now that I look back...

Find an ecu for a non-HO 302.

The following link doesn't specify firing order, but it will give you somewhere to start searching...
http://www.fordfuelinjection.com/?p=17



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Old 08-03-2007, 01:55 AM   #20
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I hope this is an easy 4 wire fix...

this might sound to easy of a fix, but have you considered just moving the wires around in the 60 pin connector? all that you have to change are inj 3 on the HO 5.0 ECM to become inj 5 on the non HO ECM, and the 7 to 4. no need to cut the injector harness. as long as the cam is a non HO firing order its easy, than run the wires on the cap that way too.
..---HO firing order 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
Non HO firing order 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
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Old 08-04-2007, 12:14 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goose347 View Post
Is there an easy inexpensive way to change the injector firing order from 13726548 to 15426378? I am using a A9L computer to control an EFI 460, and it has the same firing order as a non-HO 302.

Thanks
Listen, after reading this I had come to this conclusion. Man if that 460 will run on an A9L EEC with absolutly no tuning what so ever other than a firing order change then I will do the following because I have a chip burner and I use Moates hardware. The chips are about $65 with shipping right? Last time I ordered two it was about $130.

I'd burn you an A9L binary to a chip with what ever firing order you want for $30 handling plus the cost of the chip because it will basically take me 5 minutes and a trip to the post office and I'll make sure it has a tracking number and insurance.

If that will solve your problem let me know. It will be an exact A9L binary (checksum set also) just with the correct firing order. If you want EGR and thermactor deleted let me know as it is just a couple more key strokes.

This will include no additional tuning efforts, but will save you cutting wires or swapping cams if your engine is mild enough to run on a factory A9L tune.

Patrick.

[Edit] Let me make it clear I'm not a dealer, advertiser, or a business. I'm just an individual with a chip burner helping another if needed.
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Old 08-04-2007, 12:22 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricks90billblass View Post
this might sound to easy of a fix, but have you considered just moving the wires around in the 60 pin connector? all that you have to change are inj 3 on the HO 5.0 ECM to become inj 5 on the non HO ECM, and the 7 to 4. no need to cut the injector harness. as long as the cam is a non HO firing order its easy, than run the wires on the cap that way too.
..---HO firing order 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
Non HO firing order 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
That would fire the injectors but would wreak havoc on the HEGO balance for closed loop and result in a terrible idle and MPG. Cylinders 1 and 3 are on the same bank, then 7 and 2 are opposite banks, 6,5 same bank, then 4 and 8 opposite. The EEC will be expecting a report back from the HEGO's to tell it how close to the commanded AFR (lambse) it got so it can trim the fuel accordingly. So right after it fires the #1 injector it will fire the #5 next. Expecting the #3 it will think it was to lean and richen up the mixture, then it will see #4's fuel (same bank as 1 and 3) which is just a result traveling down the pipe right?

Imagine having a perfect combination and switching your HEGO's wiring. OR routing your headers side to side if possible, tube by tube. The EEC is about Math and that Math is garbage in, garbage out.


Let me provide the following:

SEQUENTIAL ELECTRONIC FUEL INJECTION (SEFI)

The A/F ratio control actuators consist of injectors whose fuel metering
function is affected by energizing and de-energizing the injector solenoids.

Each injector has a metering needle or pintle which opens or closes the
injector nozzle to release fuel.

A high pressure fuel pump delivers fuel to the injectors at approximately 42
PSI.

Based upon the calculated air mass value, the software calculates the
injector pulsewidths required to give the desired A/F ratio.

The desired A/F ratio for all operating conditions is determined by the A/F
strategy and calibration.

The strategy is designed to handle any reasonable injector configuration and
firing patterns.

Example configurations are:

1. 1 or 2 output CFI
2. 1 or 2 output bank EFI
3. 4, 6 or 8 output Sequential EFI

The strategy can run on 4, 6 or 8-cylinder engines. The calibration
parameters ENGCYL and NUMCYL control the engine type. The user must set both
parameters for the strategy to work correctly.

On SEFI applications, each cylinder has an injector located in the intake
port near the intake valve. The injectors are individually fired in an order
that matches the firing order of the engine. The injector output numbers
correspond to engine cylinder numbers. This allows for consistent
nomenclature for the module pinouts and the wiring harness. Under normal
engine running, each injection is timed to occur at an optimum point in the
intake event. Injector timing is determined by strategy and calibration.

Timed sequential fuel injection requires a signature PIP distributor. The
signature PIP allows the computer to identify cylinder #1. The PIP signal
for cylinder #1 has a unique duty cycle, that is smaller than the normal 50%
duty cycle. The computer recognizes the signature PIP to synchronize the
fuel injections.

CLOSED LOOP MODE

During closed loop operation, the computer ramps the desired lambda values
(LAMBSE1, LAMBSE2) in a limit cycle manner about stoichiometry. Using the
EGO (Exhaust Gas Oxygen) sensor, the computer increases or decreases lambda
at a calculated rate of change. The rate at which lambda changes is
calibration dependent. For Stereo EGO operation, LAMBSE1 and LAMBSE2 vary
independently using EGO-1 and EGO-2 sensors. For Mono EGO operation, LAMBSE1
equals LAMBSE2.

HEGO - HEATED EXHAUST GAS OXYGEN SENSOR (Analog Input)

The HEGO sensor is a modified (it is connected to a power and a ground wire)
EGO sensor and provides the same functions as the EGO. The modification
allows it to heat up more quickly than the unmodified EGO sensor
(approximately 18 seconds versus 80 seconds), thus providing an earlier

Closed Loop operation on a cold start. This modification also allows it to
operate at cooler locations in the exhaust system providing greater
flexibility in sensor packaging. Associated with this property is more
accurate sampling of the exhaust when the HEGO may be placed closer to the
catalytic converter.

There is a slightly longer transport delay between EGO switch and fuel
injection changes which may cause a longer "tracking" effect, but the bottom
line is the ability to elicit a more even and accurate sampling.

Additionally, the more stable sensor temperature of the HEGO is known to keep
contaminants away from the sensor, reducing degradation of the sensor over
50K miles. It also avoids the EGO cool-down during Idle which occurs with
the normal EGO.
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Last edited by patrickmx2; 08-04-2007 at 12:52 AM.
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Old 08-04-2007, 12:55 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ricks90billblass View Post
this might sound to easy of a fix, but have you considered just moving the wires around in the 60 pin connector? all that you have to change are inj 3 on the HO 5.0 ECM to become inj 5 on the non HO ECM, and the 7 to 4. no need to cut the injector harness. as long as the cam is a non HO firing order its easy, than run the wires on the cap that way too.
..---HO firing order 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
Non HO firing order 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
Not to beat a dead horse...
But, this is NOT a good idea...


http://www.fordfuelinjection.com/?p=92






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Old 08-04-2007, 01:01 AM   #24
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lol
Talk about beating a dead horse...
I double posted!
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Last edited by vristang; 08-04-2007 at 01:11 AM. Reason: Slow ass Corral had me double posting...
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Old 08-04-2007, 01:12 AM   #25
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Ahhh yes Jason, I like your link even better!

Goose, 2 posts up if you want a chip as described let me know. I seriously think it will require more tuning though. CID from 302 to 460 changed in the EEC, etc...

If you go to the link Jason posted do some reading on the MAF unit. (Mass Air Sensor). Think of your engine as an air pump. The MAF is used to calculate load. Your 460 cid air pump will move substantially more air than a 302 air pump. This means your MAF is going to measure more air at a given RPM. This will make the EEC think it is under more load at any time and cause it to richen up the mixture. Idle surging is usually due to a rich condition.

go to eectuning.org and do a search for LOAD and you will see what I mean.

Good luck either way though. I'd like to see the results of that monster when complete so keep us posted.
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Last edited by patrickmx2; 08-04-2007 at 01:15 AM.
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Old 08-04-2007, 03:05 AM   #26
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Thumbs down My bad

Since I am a man who is not afraid to admit being wrong and wants to learn more about the EEC IV's, I concede my easy fix answer, and learned something new!
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Old 08-04-2007, 09:25 AM   #27
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now I have to be honest, I considered that once until I sat and thought it through about what the EEC would see if I did. Information is always good to know. I've found that even though sometimes in life we can't fix everything the satisfaction of helping someone stay informed and not break anything pays just as well
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Old 08-07-2007, 03:18 AM   #28
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Sending a tall frosty one your way

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickmx2 View Post
now I have to be honest, I considered that once until I sat and thought it through about what the EEC would see if I did. Information is always good to know. I've found that even though sometimes in life we can't fix everything the satisfaction of helping someone stay informed and not break anything pays just as well
Thank-You Patrick
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Old 08-07-2007, 03:44 AM   #29
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One word would solve all of this


Megasquirt.......
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Old 08-07-2007, 09:43 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scout View Post
One word would solve all of this


Megasquirt.......
Rewire the car, replace most every sensor and the EEC, invest many hours of tuning.

vs.

Spend less than $100 and 10 minutes installing a chip just to change the firing order?

Wouldn't that would be like driving an hour to the air port to fly across the street?


Granted, I'm interested in seeing a 460 run on a stock EEC but even then a trip to the dyno and getting a custom chip would be cheaper if all he is looking for is a car that is dialed in and ready to go.
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Old 09-03-2007, 01:36 AM   #31
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i have a 472 cid big block ford in my 91 f350 with mild cam and edlebrock performer rpm intake which i mad my own injector bungs and made an adapter to mount efi 460 upper on 4bbl flange.. i use an a9m3 proccesor from a 93 mustang along with a stock 93 mustang wiring harness and computer. it still runs the h.o. fring order and works fine. it is only noticed at idle but not much at all
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Old 09-04-2007, 09:47 AM   #32
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That is a major upgrade in time, labor and dollar investment to have the injectors squirting down the wrong tunnel when a $60 chip and 30 seconds of tuning could correct this.

I think next trip to the dyno I'm going to swap my injector firing order to non-ho and see how much HP and TQ is lost. I know the batch fire systems lose a little over the sequential and the MPG is less also.
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Old 09-04-2007, 04:53 PM   #33
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lot of time and labor??? it was about an hour and a half upgrade. where my computer mounts i have no room to mount a chip the service port on the back is right against a little bracket. where can you get a chip for 60. I have looked at things like the tweecer and they are 200+ and i dont have a lap top to tune it.
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Old 09-04-2007, 05:13 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by 472cid View Post
lot of time and labor??? it was about an hour and a half upgrade. where my computer mounts i have no room to mount a chip the service port on the back is right against a little bracket. where can you get a chip for 60. I have looked at things like the tweecer and they are 200+ and i dont have a lap top to tune it.

www.moates.net for the chips. You would need someone with a burner to hook you up with a simple 30 second flash. I have a burner and is simple to do. I mentioned elsewhere on here, just send me the chip, pay pal me the shipping and I'd do it for next to nothing just to cover my time to the UPS drop off

My point with time and labor is in building a 472 and injecting it like that must have had a point in the first place. Obviously it wasnt maximizing HP and TQ from the engine rebuild / upgrade. I'm not trying to be negative to your cause but that final step with the firing order is like buying a nice tux for a wedding and then wearing flip flops or going bare foot.
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Old 09-05-2007, 06:59 PM   #35
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i dont know much about chips but let me tell you about my set up. I also must add i dont know much about modifying injection it is merely injected to run at steep angles without flooding. It is a 70 460 with DOVE heads (75cc) with sealed power h535cp flat top pistons with two valve reliefs. a comp cams 4x4 xtreme cam(Advertised Duration 270/ 278, Lift .554/ .574, Ford, 429/ 460,) 1.7 ssi aluminum roller rockers, trick flow chrome moly pushrods and guide plates, edlebrock performer rpm intake, stock 460 fi upper intake and throttle body hooked to stock mustang mass air (19 lbs calibration) and running 24lb injectors. i plan on adding a cobra mass air but i do not know much else. how do i know when injectors are too small. If you can burn a chip for this i would be interested. it runs good now but i think it should have more ass than it does. also does the chip plug into the service port and does it have to stay there as i dont have the room where the ecm is located to leave it in.

Last edited by 472cid; 09-05-2007 at 07:15 PM.
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