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Old 05-22-2007, 08:40 AM   #1
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a3m1

how much advance timing does the a3m1 add with the spout in? 16, 21 or 23 degrees? thanks
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Old 05-22-2007, 11:45 AM   #2
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can you elaborate on this ..i just stumbled on this post i have a a3m but i didn't know it advanced anything
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Old 05-22-2007, 12:10 PM   #3
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a stock eec iv computer adds spark timing advance with the spout conector plugged in like the vaccumm advance distributors do on carb cars. i read a thread were a member says it can add anywhere from 16, 21 or 23 degrees of timing to the base timing set. stock base is 10 degrees. i was always under the assumption all spout connectors added a total of 16 degrees only at wide open throttle which leaves me confused how people without standalone computer systems control their timing in a supercharged application. here is the link to the post. i am not quite sure the info given is accurate.
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Old 05-22-2007, 01:03 PM   #4
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hey I can't see the link, I appreciate the post im trying to learn as much as possible about tuniing
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Old 05-22-2007, 01:17 PM   #5
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Again,

I told you in your last post, it will add up to 26 degree's of timing.

STOCK advance vs RPM (Tables you can modify with a tuner)

0 RPMS to 1000 RPMS = +8 Degrees
1001 to 1800 RPMS = +18.5 Degrees (Its scalar)
From 1801 to 2150 = +21.5 Degrees (Its scalar)
From 2151 to 2600 = +22.5 Degrees (Its Scalar)
From 2601 to 3500 = + 22 Degrees - Yes drops .5 (Its Scalar)
From 3501 to 5000 = + 26 Degrees (Its Scalar)
From 5001 to Unlimited = + 26 Degrees (Its Scalar)

Modifiers Vs Engine Coolant Temperature

-256 to 85 degrees Temp = +3 degrees timing
86 to 119 degrees Temp = +3
120 to 199 degrees Temp = +0
200 to 235 degrees Temp = +0
236 to 245 degrees Temp = -2
246 degrees Temp + = -4

Modifiers Vs Engine Air Temperature
Basically the only modifier is when you hit 240 degrees and up outside.

240+ degrees air temp = -6

Part Throttle Advance Vs Air Temp

-256 to 160 degree's = 0
161 to 190 degrees = -2
254 = -2
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Old 05-22-2007, 03:02 PM   #6
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this would help. sorry
http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=914744

dac sorry but i must have missed that but do appreciate the info. i would assume that info is based on 10 initial? how would one effectively tune or guestimate a tune on a supercharged combo with those tables. maybe tuning wot would be the only way without a stand alone or tweecer of somesort?

if i was to tune a car making 500 rwhp with 14 psi @6000 rpm with just a btm and 1:1 fpr, how would it be best to tune it safely?

set base timing to 10, so total would be 36 and pull timing down 16 so you have a total of 20? would it be better to lock out the dizzy @ 30 and drop it to 20 under boost?
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Old 05-22-2007, 09:54 PM   #7
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I wrote the following to explain how the ecu comes up with the timing. I did not include the A3M1, but it should still help...

A 3-way Comparison of Ford EEC-IV Computers: A9L, A9P, X3Z



WOT Spark Advance vs. RPM – FN131

A9L

RPM_____0____0____1,000___1,800___2,150___2,600___ 3,500___5,000___16,384

Degrees___8____8_____8______18.5____21.5____22.5__ ___22______25_____25

A9P

RPM______0____0____0______1,600___2,250____2,600__ _3,500___5,000___16,384

Degrees___18____18____18_____18______22______23___ ___22______26______26

X3Z

RPM_____0____0____1,000___1,800___2,150___2,600___ 3,500___5,000___16,384

Degrees___8____8_____8______18.5____21.5____22.5__ ___22______25_____25



In FN131 (WOT vs. RPM), notice that the A9P does add 10* of advance at lower WOT rpm's. If proper gearing is being selected by the driver, then a manual t5 Mustang should not see WOT below 1,600 rpm. For this reason using an A9P in a t5 Mustang will provide minimal performance gain due to ignition timing advance.



Most likely Ford used the extra 10* of advance in the A9P to help ‘off the line’ performance in the automatic Mustang. Using an A9L in an automatic equipped Mustang would sacrifice this added timing. This is why an A9L is not recommended for AOD equipped Mustangs.



Below are a couple more WOT Ignition Timing tables. The influence of these tables will be less significant than FN131, but help to illustrate the minimal difference between the A9L/A9P/X3Z computers.

Keep in mind that…

The following tables are ‘Adders’ and are summed with the above WOT table, to arrive at Total Ignition Timing. For example, in an A9L at WOT, ECT at 246F, and 5,000rpm the total timing will be (25* - 4*) 21*.

Also, the computer assumes that the distributor is always set at the stock 10* ignition advance setting. For example, advancing the distributor from the factory 10* of advance to 14* will add an additional 4* to the total timing.

Using the same example from above, this will return the total timing to 25* (making up for the 4* of retard from FN134 at an ECT of 246F).



WOT Spark Advance vs. BP – FN133

A9L

BP_______0____23.5____26.5___27.75___31.875

Degrees__12_____4_______4______0______0

A9P

BP_______0____23.5____26.5___27.75___31.875

Degrees__12_____4_______4______0______0

X3Z

BP_______0____23.5____26.5___27.75___31.875

Degrees__12_____6_______5______0______0





WOT Spark Advance vs. ECT – FN134

A9L

ECT_____-256___86__120___200___236___246___254

Degrees____3____3____0_____0____-2_____-4____-4

A9P

ECT_____-256___86__120___200___236___246___254

Degrees____3____3____0_____0____-2_____-4____-4

X3Z

ECT_____-256___86__120___210___236___244___254

Degrees____3____3____2_____0____-2_____-4____-4





WOT Spark Advance vs. ACT – FN135

A9L

ACT____-256___-256___-256___-256___150___240___254

Degrees___0_____0______0______0_____0_____-6____-6

A9P

ACT____-256___-256___-256___-256___150___240___254

Degrees___0_____0______0______0_____0_____-6____-6

X3Z

ACT____-256___-256___-256___-256___160___240___254

Degrees___0_____0______0______0_____0_____-6____-6











Now some of the Part Throttle Ignition Timing Tables, just for comparison



Part Throttle Spark Adder – FN1133

The following 3 tables are Ignition Timing Adders









Spark Table Base – FN901

The computer always assumes the base ignition timing to be set at 10* of advance.

Thus, this Table includes the factory 10* of the base timing set at the distributor. For example, an A9L with 14* set at the distributor will see 25* at 75% load and 4,000rpm (21* in the table, plus 4* over the initial of 10* = 25*). Likewise, an A9L with 10* set at the distributor will see 21* at the same load/rpm.





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Old 05-23-2007, 08:51 AM   #8
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wow. that is just simply amazing information. thank you so much for taking the time to explain all that. i now have a much better understanding for the eec timing strategies. it all makes sense. where would i be able to find this info for the a3m1? now how would fuel pressure play into all this? sorry to ask so many questions. my brain is like a sponge and wants to absorb as much info as possible. is there a magic number one is to look for timing and fuel wise when adding a supercharger into the mix?
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Old 05-23-2007, 02:01 PM   #9
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is the a3m1 in the same family as the a9l? if so can i use the same paramaters as the a9l?
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Old 05-23-2007, 02:21 PM   #10
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The A3M1 and A9L are not in the same strategy class.

I found all of the above information in the TwEECer tune editor, CalEdit.
CalEdit can be downloaded free on tweecer.com

I may be able to find the A3M1 timing tables and add them into the above info, but I cannot say for sure if I have an original (stock) version of the A3M1 .bin file.
If I can find one, I will post it up later tonight.


As for tuning boost...
I have no idea, as I have never messed with s/c's or turbos.
I would guess that the base timing should be around 12* or so...

Fuel pressure won't affect the ignition timing that the ecu calculates.


You are looking for pretty detailed info,
Are you using a tuner?


jason
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Old 05-23-2007, 02:54 PM   #11
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i have used a epec and a pms on my car but currently just stock eec-iv a3m1 crane hi-6 trc, boost retard and 3 bar map sensor. bare essentials. over the past year i converted the car from full drag car back to street car and wanted to keep the combo as simple as possible since the car is detuned. its been a short while since i have been dyno tuning. sometimes its hard to go back to the basics without overthinking everything. i have been thinking of the tweecer but it seemed difficult compared to the epec and pms. i am always looking for detailed info. most people are under the impression that just setting 14 initial and pulling 1 degree of timing per pound of boost with the spout in is how to do things. they are also under the assumption that the spout only adds 16 degrees at wot and need to see the info you posted. it definately makes me want rethink my tune.
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Old 05-23-2007, 03:17 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dac View Post
Again,

I told you in your last post, it will add up to 26 degree's of timing.

STOCK advance vs RPM (Tables you can modify with a tuner)

0 RPMS to 1000 RPMS = +8 Degrees
1001 to 1800 RPMS = +18.5 Degrees (Its scalar)
From 1801 to 2150 = +21.5 Degrees (Its scalar)
From 2151 to 2600 = +22.5 Degrees (Its Scalar)
From 2601 to 3500 = + 22 Degrees - Yes drops .5 (Its Scalar)
From 3501 to 5000 = + 26 Degrees (Its Scalar)
From 5001 to Unlimited = + 26 Degrees (Its Scalar)

Modifiers Vs Engine Coolant Temperature

-256 to 85 degrees Temp = +3 degrees timing
86 to 119 degrees Temp = +3
120 to 199 degrees Temp = +0
200 to 235 degrees Temp = +0
236 to 245 degrees Temp = -2
246 degrees Temp + = -4

Modifiers Vs Engine Air Temperature
Basically the only modifier is when you hit 240 degrees and up outside.

240+ degrees air temp = -6

Part Throttle Advance Vs Air Temp

-256 to 160 degree's = 0
161 to 190 degrees = -2
254 = -2
if this is for the a3m1 then it is exactly what i was looking for. if so are those parameters wot? for instance, 5001 to unlimited would be 26 + base timing for total? kinda like 10+26+36?
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Old 05-23-2007, 09:33 PM   #13
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Assuming the A3M1 .bin file that I found is un-modified...

The A3M1 Ignition Timing tables are exactly the same as the A9L tables listed in my post above.


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Old 05-23-2007, 09:42 PM   #14
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awesome. thanks.
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Old 05-23-2007, 10:13 PM   #15
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WOT Spark Advance vs. RPM – FN131

A9L

RPM_____0____0____1,000___1,800___2,150___2,600___ 3,500___5,000___16,384

Degrees___8____8_____8______18.5____21.5____22.5__ ___22______25_____25

A9P

RPM______0____0____0______1,600___2,250____2,600__ _3,500___5,000___16,384

Degrees___18____18____18_____18______22______23___ ___22______26______26

X3Z

RPM_____0____0____1,000___1,800___2,150___2,600___ 3,500___5,000___16,384

Degrees___8____8_____8______18.5____21.5____22.5__ ___22______25_____25

the timing values given here are total or do i need to add initial? just wanted to be sure. everything else makes sense. if i understand it correctly an a9l @ 5000 rpm wot is @ 25 deg. total timing. or do i need to add the initial for a total of 35? clarify that for me and i understand everything else and it is not as diffucult as i had anticipated. i am comparing your table to the one dac provided and there is a 1 degree difference up top which i know is trivial. both of you have provided me with a wealth of new info.
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Old 05-23-2007, 10:51 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IND9S View Post
WOT Spark Advance vs. RPM – FN131
the timing values given here are total or do i need to add initial? just wanted to be sure. everything else makes sense. if i understand it correctly an a9l @ 5000 rpm wot is @ 25 deg. total timing. or do i need to add the initial for a total of 35? clarify that for me and i understand everything else and it is not as diffucult as i had anticipated. i am comparing your table to the one dac provided and there is a 1 degree difference up top which i know is trivial. both of you have provided me with a wealth of new info.
FN131 is the 'base' ignition table, and it assumes 10* set at the dist.

So if you have advanced the ignition timing at the dist to 14*, then you must add 4* to the value you find in the FN131 table.
If you set the advance at the dist to 8*, then you will have to subtract 2* from what you see in FN131.

Then just add in the other 'adder' values for the ACT/ECT/BP values.


Notice that the FN131 is the Part Throttle/CL table.
The WOT tables are different tables...

jason
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Old 05-24-2007, 08:52 AM   #17
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i am confused then because you have WOT Spark Advance vs. RPM – FN131 written in there. where would i find the wot tables then?
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Old 05-24-2007, 09:25 AM   #18
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damn it...
I was thinking one thing and typed another.

I was just seeing if you were paying attention...
Yeah, that's it...
I was testing you...


FN131 through FN135 are all WOT

FN1133 and FN901 are Part Throttle / CL




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Old 05-24-2007, 12:28 PM   #19
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awesome....your the best. and to think....i thought old age was setting in on me...lol....thanks again.
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Old 11-22-2010, 05:24 PM   #20
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Good Read...
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