Relocated Uppers or Adjustable Front Struts?

[AlexLTDLX]

I have a decision to make... now that the track's open, I've got (maybe) enough time to do one suspension mod before next weekend. Currently, the car's very consistent - 1.60 sixty foots all day long. However, it doesn't dead-hook; if I hammer the throttle, it'll spin the slicks. I'd like to come closer to a dead hook. It doesn't squat when it takes off, and there's not a whole lot of weight transfer going on. Considering the suspension is pretty darn close to stock, it's doing quite well (best 60' of 1.55).

So I've narrowed my options down to one of two choices: relocated uppers (Team Z or Baseline) vs. Strange front adjustable struts (currently running KYB road-race type struts).

Realizing that both together and dialed in would probably work the best, which one to start with? Which would give me the largest single improvement? Anyone with first hand data from either mod?

[Silver LX]

wolfe suspension

[AlexLTDLX]

Originally Posted by Silver LX

wolfe suspension

Baseline. Team Z. UPR. Steeda. I can name suspension companies, too. This helps me how?

[Just Chuck]

Squat doesn't equal weight transfer. On most cars you will actually want zero or just a bit of anti squat. Front end rise is weight transfer. I've had good success with my 10 year old 70/30 lakewoods and Baseline uppers. It will 60 into the low 1.4s off the tranbrake and 8.5" slicks. I'm at the point where I want to slow the front end rise even more in an effort to control reaction times.

Read the baseline suspension "How to launch a drag car" and make sure you understand it; then read it some more. It's been my bible in setting up my car. I love my Baseline uppers, but are ready to switch to solid mount points?

Also, consider rear adjustable shocks. My QA1 twelve ways have probably been the best bang for the buck on my car. You really need to video tape your car launching to

If you watch my car lauch, it actually has some antisquat and doesn't unload the rear tires when the front comes back down.
Slow Launch - YouTube

[mgerman93]

I've had success with monroe formula gp struts and baseline relocated uppers. The struts have been on the car since '98. Car sixty foots 1.40 consistently off the brake at 5k rpm.

[AlexLTDLX]

I do understand that squat and weight transfer are two different things. I suppose the car could use just a little bit more anti-squat, but it's not bad right now. Looking at your video (those are 8.5" slicks? they look huge! I'm running 9" slicks), your car rises in the back just a little, but the front shoots up fast. Mine stays pretty level in the back, maybe just a *hair* of squat, but the front rises slowly. Here's a video of my car at launch:

Eaton M112-Blown LTD vs. some random 9 second junk at the strip - YouTube

Eaton M112-Blown LTD vs. some random 9 second junk at the strip - YouTube

I'd guess I don't get max rise until about 12-15 feet out. My IC is a little better than a stock mustang because of a slightly longer wheelbase (according to baseline's on-line calculator, anyway). I did spend time on their site reading up as much as possible.

I see the following pro's/cons with the relocated uppers:

Pros
-More anti-squat will plant the tires harder
-Might gain a little stability down track

Cons
-Harder on the chassis/mounting points
-Might have a detrimental effect on street driving/autocrossing


And with the adjustable struts:

Pros
-Faster weight transfer should give the tires more traction from the jump
-Wheels up, baby! (yeah, ok; wasted energy - but it'd be cool)
-Will not detrimentally affect street driving/autocrossing

Cons
-Might not actually improve 60' times significantly

I'd love to be able to get in the 1.4's consistently.

mgerman93 - I saw your post while I was writing this one up. I read about your setup before; specifically that you don't use drag struts. What kind of 60's were you cutting before the relocated uppers? What's your current setup/power level/track times? Any driveability issues on the street? Which Baseline setup do you have? My current KYBs are about as old as yours... maybe a little older, lol.

Thanks!

[mgerman93]

"mgerman93 - I saw your post while I was writing this one up. I read about your setup before; specifically that you don't use drag struts. What kind of 60's were you cutting before the relocated uppers? What's your current setup/power level/track times? Any driveability issues on the street? Which Baseline setup do you have? My current KYBs are about as old as yours... maybe a little older, lol."

Alex, Before the baseline uppers I had a set of upr double adjustable uppers, and I was able to get them working fairly well. They would typically sixty foot in the low 1.5x range in decent conditions, with an occasional high 1.4x in excellent conditions. The baseline uppers slightly lowered the sixty foot to consistent 1.48- 1.49 in average conditions. On nitrous with the baseline uppers, and with 18 lbs in my 28x9 et drags, I can not spin them on lanch. Sixty foot is 1.40-1.41 on every pass. Old combination (times in sig) is 306, cobra intake, afr 165s, N61, C4, 28x9, .410, 150 shot. New combination is the same with direct port fogger replacing the single nozzle. Car drives excellent on the street, and has been as far as the world ford challenge in St. Louis. My uppers are the pro launch 1. Mark

[AlexLTDLX]

That's some good info - thanks! So, just to be clear, would you say that the relocated uppers were worth about half a tenth in the 60? I would imagine that our cars are similar in terms of launch power - a nitrous hit is much like an instant 11 lbs of boost. I'm guessing you pull the fronts on launch.

Based on the launch in the video I posted above, which do you think I need address first - faster front end rise or more anti-squat?

PS - Any videos of your car at the track?

[mgerman93]

"That's some good info - thanks! So, just to be clear, would you say that the relocated uppers were worth about half a tenth in the 60? I would imagine that our cars are similar in terms of launch power - a nitrous hit is much like an instant 11 lbs of boost. I'm guessing you pull the fronts on launch.

Based on the launch in the video I posted above, which do you think I need address first - faster front end rise or more anti-squat?

PS - Any videos of your car at the track?"

The uppers were a significant benefit on the sixty foot. It's hard to pin an exact number on it due to varying conditions, but I'd say .03-.05 would be a representative range improvement on my car over varying track conditions. This combination makes 430 at the flywheel on motor, and with a 150 shot it's ~580 or so total. The car pulls the front wheels about four inches on launch.

In your video, I notice you are getting quite a bit of wheel speed on the initial hit before the tire plants. Some is beneficial, but your case seems a touch excessive. My car gets less wheel speed in the slow motion vids I've looked at. I have some video, but no way to transfer it from camera to the net. (it's not my camera) I had some launch pics posted in my gallery, but I took them down, and now the gallery no longer works to load pics.

[AlexLTDLX]

That's a good observation (re: wheel speed). I had a Hoosier tech guy look at the video, and he said I have very little weight transfer going on. So, do you feel that getting the weight transferred back would have a greater effect than increasing anti-squat? Or just the other way around?

[mgerman93]

"That's a good observation (re: wheel speed). I had a Hoosier tech guy look at the video, and he said I have very little weight transfer going on. So, do you feel that getting the weight transferred back would have a greater effect than increasing anti-squat? Or just the other way around?"

Alex, I'm of the opinion the IC is too low, because the tires don't have sufficient force to plant immediately at the hit. Notice when the tire begins to hook, the nose rises (transferring weight) as traction increases. IC will provide the initial bite at the hit. My car has very little AS, and I suspect as your suspension is sorted out, the hard work will eventually pay off.

[FordFreak300]

While I agree with mark that your IC needs some adjustment to bite more at the hit, I also think your front is coming up too slow. While i would love to see you get a set of relocated uppers on your car I am going to suggest getting a set of strange 10 way adjustable struts on the front. The reason I am saying to do the struts first is as soon as you get the relocated uppers your going to want to be able to control the front rate some. I would really like to see the front struts and a set of adjustable relocated uppers on your car. I want to warn you though, once you really get that car really hooking your going to want to think about an ARB also.

I love following the progress of your car!

[AlexLTDLX]

Thanks for the input, guys. Well, it seems we have one vote for uppers and one for struts. I've always tended to stay away from rear control arm mods - it seems like there's a possibility for some long-term detrimental effects. But the upper relocation concept is more solid (to me, anyway) then lower arm relocation that was popular some years back. And you can't argue with the results that people are getting. Ultimately, I'll likely end up with both. When the slicks were new (and the car was making a lot less power), my best 60' was 1.55. Totally stock rear suspension. I did leave out one *tiny* bit of info - the slicks are like eight years old. I'm going to go with Hoosier QTP's that are 27x9. Does that change anything?

[66notch]

My car only has 2 inches of upward travel in the front. It's tied down with the struts as tight as they will go. Weight transfer from the front end rising is good for wheelies if that is what you want. My car has the Team Z relocated uppers and 60fts in the 1.22 range on 275's. This year we should have a little more power so we hope it will 60 a little better. I would do the uppers.

[Just Chuck]

Alex, what springs are up front? Struts will allow the speed of the weight transfer, but if you don't have a lot of stored energy (long springs), it might be a waste.

I had good luck with 4 Cyl front springs on my Mustang. If the LTD front end isn't too heavy, maybe you could look at something like that along with struts.

BTW, my video was with 26x10 MT slicks. Today I run 8.5 Hoosiers and it leaves about the same. Both were on a 10" wheel

[AlexLTDLX]

Just Chuck - I've got mustang GT front springs (uncut) in the car. They're sort of like the "4 cylinder" equivalent for the LTDs. Stock LTD LX's came with what became known as the Motorsport "C" springs. They're pretty darn hard. With the GT springs, the front end sits almost 2" lower than stock, even with all the weight I've taken out of the front end (aluminum heads, headers vs. cast iron manifolds, no a/c, trimmed bumper, etc). I'd guess that even with the big intake and blower, the front is still about 100 lbs lighter than stock. With the GT springs, the car rides and handles surprisingly well.


Overall, it seems like we're pretty evenly split in the strut vs. uppers debate. So today I made a decision (finally - sheesh - talk about over-analyzing...) to just go ahead and buy new tires. I called up the Hoosier rep for pricing and to get them installed (they're pretty awesome over there in Baltimore - great prices, and they do a fantastic job of mounting and balancing at virtually no additional cost). The guy I spoke with was the same guy I asked to look at my video from last fall - the same guy who told me not to buy new tires, but that I need to transfer weight better. He basically told me that new tires would spin too, until I get the chassis sorted. He wants me to put in new struts before buying tires from him.

Long story short, I ordered the struts. Not that I'm discounting the "relocated uppers" camp; new struts are a bit cheaper, easier to put in (for me anyways), and I've been running struts designed for the 4 cylinder cars on my 5.0 front spindles. If you know what I'm talking about, then you'll understand that I had to make spacers to get them to work. And then I'll get some hard data with the same tires, and we'll see which camp gets to say, "I told you so."

I've been consistently pulling low 1.6's, with a few bad runs peppered throughout; but at least 2/3rds of my runs are between 1.60 and 1.62 in the 60'. If the struts are in fact an improvement, we should know pretty definitively.

I'll keep you informed! Thanks for all your input!

[Maglin]

you already purchased what I was going to suggest. Some s/a front struts with coil overs and CC plates. Run a 12-150 front spring and lower the rear. If you have stock coils out back cut one coil off. That should get your IC and AS in a more acceptable area. You can control the front end with the struts on its speed. To fast with not enough power and it will fall fast and unload the tires down track. You should be able to get 1.4x 60s with good conditions. Your stock uppers are going to soak up a lot of initial power with their large mushy bushings. So that would be next to replace followed by the rear shocks.

Sent from my Amazon Kindle Fire using Tapatalk

[AlexLTDLX]

Cool. I already have super-awesome billet CC plates with spherical bearings. Unfortunately, I can't run coil overs - no room with the street tires (275/40/17s). Also, I'm honestly not sure what springs I'm running in the back. But whatever they are (they're either gonna be stock LTD LX springs or stock mustang GT springs), they do tend to sit a little low. Which is probably good. I've even thought about raising the back just a bit, for tire clearance (like 1/4" by putting isolators back in).

As far as my control arms - they're stock, sorta. I have poly bushings all around except at the upper pumpkin. I put heavy-duty rubber ones in there (to avoid the dreaded non-parallel 4 link "bind"). The lowers are a little different than the mustang ones. They don't have that uber-giant oval bushing in the back. They're just small, round jobs. Less deflection, which is good.

And for the first time ever, I just took a cursory look under the car to see how things looked. To my surprise, the torque boxes look pretty mint. So I measured stuff and ran it through Baseline's on-line plotting software. Looks like the anti-squat's not all that great. Without me in it, it's about 71%. With me in it, it's about 72%. So there's room for more there, definitely. Especially if I take some weight out of the car. With Baseline's calculator, it said that my anti-squat value would go up to 127% with their relocation brackets. I even messed around with re-locating the other points. If I were to lower the rear lower control arm bolt by 1/2" and put a 1/2" isolator under the rear spring, I'd be at 107% anti-squat with the same ride height. So many options, so much math...

Yet another reason to go with the struts first. Testing different settings is so much more fun. I get to do it racing!

[FordFreak300]

I still want to see you get the relocated uppers. I just wanted to see the struts first and get some of that weight up front moving. If the front comes back down to fast (as was already mentioned) you will just unload the rear tires and spin. Play with the adjustable struts at the track and get them to work. Put what each change did in a note book for future reference. Then get some relocated uppers in there and enjoy the difference. Keep in mind your car is a hair longer and a little heavier than a mustang, so your IC and your AS may be slightly different.

[Sledger46]

Originally Posted by AlexLTDLX

I did leave out one *tiny* bit of info - the slicks are like eight years old. I'm going to go with Hoosier QTP's that are 27x9. Does that change anything?

New tires are going to do more then the struts or relocated uppers. I tried to run 10 year old ET Streets that only had a few passes on them and were carefully sealed and stored. I could only produce 1.70 sixty foot times with them. I bought a brand new pair of tiny MT ET Street radials 235x60x15 and got down to consistent 1.58 sixty foot times and a best of 1.56.

I do have Lakewood 70/30 struts on the front, but they were on the car with both sets of tires. Swapping tires and struts at the same time on your car is going to make the struts seem to have a dramatic effect, when it is really the tires.

[Stopsign32v]

Used front drag springs. That will get your nose to raise, struts will not if you have stiff front springs.

[AlexLTDLX]

Roy at Hoosier was pretty opposed to doing anything other than the struts. It's not that I don't need new tires - I certainly do; but he insists that weight transfer is the bulk of my issue. He said that going to a QTP with it's stiffer sidewall will just highlight the lack of weight transfer further. And I don't mind getting that hard data to compare anyway. A bad day racing is still better than a good day dealing with my ex wife.

When the Hoosiers were new, I got a best 60' of 1.55 on them. Average was 1.60. Which is pretty much where my current average is. They're down about half a tenth, I would guess. But we'll all find out soon enough!

Again, though - I'm running stock GT springs in the front. Which are quite soft for this car - they lowered the car considerably.

[FordFreak300]

I agree with sledger that the new tires are gonna make it hard to see how well the struts helped. But making changes to the struts will help you fine tune things in. When ate you gonna get to make a pass?

[AlexLTDLX]

Hopefully soon. They're calling for rain again this weekend. I wish I lived in California like you. It'd be better for racing and better for work. If it doesn't rain, you can bet I'll find some way to make it out to the track!

[FordFreak300]

Our local 1/8 mile and 1/4 mile tracks are closed. Its about 2 1/2 hours to the next closest 1/4 mile track. Last weekend it was so packed guys got 1 and 2 runs in. Hopefully we get our 1/8 mile track open fairly quickly and hopefully our 1/4 mile track can open back up this year. We have been getting a lot o rain our selves. The next few weeks is still our rainy season here. Trust me when I said California is not the paradise a lot of people think it is. It is just Warner than other places in the winter time. Hopefully you can make it out to te track and the rain stays away for you. I'm looking forward to hearing some updates.

[White90GT]

The first suspension changes I made to my old 90GT were 4 cylinder front springs and Lakewood 90/10s. That was before Strange 10 ways were the same price as 90/10s. With just those two changes, the car was getting into the bottom 1.50s on the nitrous. I put on some double adjustable uppers and stock lowers with poly bushings and was getting 1.45-1.48 fairly consistently. This was a 347 with a 3200 stall, C4, and a 100-150 shot at the time, 424 rwhp.

That said at the power level I'm at now, rear suspension is more important than front suspension. That changes my thinking a bit in that if you can't plant the tire at the initial hit, its not going to try to lift the front of the car at all. I tend to tighten up my front struts now to control wheelstanding.

It's a toss up really. Ultimately you want to do the rear ctrl arms and the front struts/springs. As you increase in power, the rear suspension gets to be more and more important and the front less important except controlling wheelstands that are initiated by the rear tires hooking up.

[LXguy]

If its not too late, I'd recommend something/anything else over the QTP tires. I have found the sidewalls on those tires (and hoosiers in general) to be very very soft. They probably work great for cars with little or no suspension, but for serious stuff they wad up too much.

Hoosier's stiff sidewall 26*8" slick is an incredibly awesome tire however.

[LXguy]

Originally Posted by AlexLTDLX

Cons
-Harder on the chassis/mounting points

Does Baseline/Team Z recommend upper torque box reinforcements with their kits?

[AlexLTDLX]

Thanks guys; some really good info here. I don't know if Team Z or Baseline recommend torque box reinforcements with their stuff, but I'm sure it would help. I'm at the point now where I'm making enough power to go mid 10's; I just need to figure out how to get it all to the ground without sacrificing too much in the way of street/handling driving. I can say with confidence that the Strange struts are great when set tight (currently 3 click from full tight) for handling. I believe that 90% of absolute max suspension can be had by just doing the front struts, upper rear control arms and tires. Tires are the biggest thing.

Today I was strongly urged to look into the new generation of drag radials - the Hoosiers and the M/T's. Unfortunately, I don't think I could get a 28 inch diameter tire in there, and anything over a 10.5" section width isn't gonna happen either. With all my caveats in place, is it even possible to get a drag radial to dead hook? I'd be looking at the Hoosier 275/50/15. I wish it was just a little taller for gearing reasons, but it's the best I can find...

[AlexLTDLX]

BTW - Capitol Raceway closed unexpectedly today.

[FordFreak300]

I read about capital raceway closing yesterday. It said they are having land lease issues. I feel your pain we had our 2 local tracks close here in southern California and are awaiting one of them to open again.

[LXguy]

It always sucks to hear about a track closing. Its so rare that you ever hear about one opening.

I guess there's hope. Gateway down in St louis closed a couple of years ago, but they are apparently back in business.

I have had very good performance out of (mickey thompson) drag radials, but they seem to be MUCH more sensitive to track prep than the standby bias ply tires. Often my car would hook great in the morning but then it gets worse all day. went back to slicks for the consistency.

I haven't run the new gen deals though.

[Sledger46]

Originally Posted by AlexLTDLX

I'd be looking at the Hoosier 275/50/15. I wish it was just a little taller for gearing reasons, but it's the best I can find...

Split the difference and go with a MT Street Radial 255/60/15 as they are 27" tall and should fit in your wheel well nicely.

Check out this thread on this tire's capability:

How quick with M/T 255-60-15 Drag Radials?

[AlexLTDLX]

Results of the struts are in:

1st run - 1.52 60' (17 psi in Hoosier 26x9 slicks - which are 8 years old)
2nd run - 1.51 60'
3rd run - 1.56 60' - spun
4th run - 1.60 60' - spun again; decided to check the pressure in the slicks, was at 20 psi! Dropped it back down to 16 psi
5th run - 1.52 60'

So... as long as I'm keeping an eye on my tire pressures, the Strange struts were worth .08 seconds in the sixty. For all but the last pass, the struts were set on the third click from full loose. On the last pass, I set them to the 2nd click from full loose.

Bottom line - great investment. Next up: new tires. Should get me into the 1.4's... here's hoping!

[Need-a-cage]

Let's see a video of the launch with the new struts.

You mentioned that the relocated uppers are not good for autocrossing. Where did you find this info? I was considering relocated uppers but I want to run open track events with my car along with drag race and drive it on the street.

Thanks