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Old 03-28-2004, 06:58 PM   #1
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Thumbs up Holy A9M conversion!!!!

I finally got to yanking the old stock computer out of my 95 cobra and putting in an A9M from a fox. OMFG is all I can say, it unlocked a TON of performance. Where before it wouldn't accelerate good at low rpms it owns now. I couldn't even get the car sideways with the old comp but now it performs just like my old 91GT(this is with a stock exhaust and gears btw)! I highly recommend this swap if you've got the stock comp, makes tuning a breeze. I didn't want a tweecer because I didn't want to hook my car up to a computer every time I want to tune it. Plus I got the old style PIH module and an A9M box for less than a tweecer costs. Exhaust and gears are next and I should be seeing some 12 sec passes this spring

Much thanks goes out to Sillycobras for the great deal and all the help installing this sucker!
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Old 03-28-2004, 08:05 PM   #2
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I have been debating between the twecer and the PIH. It just seems that with the cost of the PIH, it would be better to go with a tweecer.
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Old 03-28-2004, 08:17 PM   #3
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any way you look at it, you still have a stock eec that needs tuning
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Old 03-28-2004, 11:15 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by GTPhreak
any way you look at it, you still have a stock eec that needs tuning
The only thing tuning an A9M will do is bump the timing up. I just did that today myself with a timing gun. That's why there is no point to getting chips for fox mustangs, they just bump timing. Now I don't have to worry about getting all the settings right with a tweecer, it's just plug and play. Again, I got the entire old style PIH setup for LESS than a tweecer and all I did was swap computers and go, no messing with anything.

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Old 03-28-2004, 11:21 PM   #5
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Cool I have a 94 Cobra w/ 4.10 gears, E303 cam, Mac Catback, Underdrive pullies, and a CAI thats ran the best of 8.29 at 80mph out of 3 passes w/ the stock computer. I'd like to see what an A9L would do considering the 94-95 cobra computer pulls timing and adds fuel like crazy. I need to find a PIH and I'd be set. Anyone got one for cheap?
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Old 03-28-2004, 11:23 PM   #6
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Old 03-28-2004, 11:55 PM   #7
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I didn't think that a Fox computer will work b/c the sn-95s have a baro sensor built into the mass air, and the baro on foxes is on the firewall? I tried putting a 5-spd 92 eec into mine and it wouldn't hardly idle or run worth a damn
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Old 03-29-2004, 12:00 AM   #8
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You didn't have the PIH harness then, mine runs fine. You have NO CLUE how much better the thing performs with the fox comp. It's like dropping a whole new engine in the car. You do need a MAF calibrated to 24lb injectors and an MSD ignition box too.
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Old 03-29-2004, 12:30 AM   #9
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Ahh, I was thinking you installed just the eec. Makes sense now.
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Old 03-29-2004, 12:45 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by SilverSmith82
The only thing tuning an A9M will do is bump the timing up. I just did that today myself with a timing gun. That's why there is no point to getting chips for fox mustangs, they just bump timing. Now I don't have to worry about getting all the settings right with a tweecer, it's just plug and play. Again, I got the entire old style PIH setup for LESS than a tweecer and all I did was swap computers and go, no messing with anything.
I feel I have to reply to some of your opinions above.

But first, I'm glad you got a gain by going with fox pcm.

You are correct about some chips and the fact that very little is changed with them to improve performance but that is not the case with all chips.

A chip tuner who knows their stuff and use equip that gives them access to all options (Autologic & the like) can do just about anything that is needed for power or drivability or both.

Anybody with basic knowledge of the fox or Sn95 pcm strategies can also manipulate the pcm to their satisfaction with a tuning device just like the chip tuners also.

I've used my Tweecer for power & drivability with very good results.

I got no prob with the Pro-M retro-fit fox pcm deal as a mod for more power but as pointed out by another poster, you still have a stock pcm and I would like to point out that it is an older one with technology that is not as flexable as the SN95 pcm.

The spark can be increased by twisting the dizzy, that is true.

However

Having control of the spark amount at a certain rpm, control of air to fuel at low rpm only, mid rpm only, or high rpm only can not be done with mechanical means, or control of drivability issues, these things and more can be done with a good chip or tuning device.

If your combo grows to the point that you need control over some of the above, the PIH mod will need a chip or tuning device.

I may not understand your post but it seems that you are saying that a chip (my words here, or tuning device) is usless.

That is not my findings based upon my experience.

Later
Grady
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Old 03-29-2004, 03:11 AM   #11
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Not at all. I'm sure that an experienced tuner can do all kinds of crazy stuff with a tweecer. I'm not an experienced tuner and I don't want to have to deal with all the tuning stuff. The PIH is plug and play and that's the way I like it. If I want more power later I'll get a custom chip but I'm never going to want more than an S trim will give my cobra. I see what you are saying and all but everyone I talked to here said to get a tweecer. I found I like the PIH better but I did get the thing for a song compared to what they usually cost. I guess that makes me the exception but this cobra performs better than my 91 GT with 3.73s now and the thing is totally stock except for a 75mm MAF and an MSD box. I can't wait to see what this thing is really capable of when I open it up with exhaust, gears and a 65mm TB.
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Old 03-29-2004, 05:52 AM   #12
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Is the PIH an adapter harness to swap in the A9L ? And where can I get somemore info on it ?
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Old 03-29-2004, 08:33 AM   #13
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final5-0,
If you keep these cars under 300 rwhp, then adjusting spark and air to fuel at different rpms really won't make that big a difference in the horsepower area. And the PIH works great, look at the times in my sig that I ran with the 94

john
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Old 03-29-2004, 11:56 AM   #14
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Can someone post the price for both, the Tweecer and tha A9 conversion? Thanks.
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Old 03-29-2004, 12:35 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by sillycobras
final5-0,
If you keep these cars under 300 rwhp, then adjusting spark and air to fuel at different rpms really won't make that big a difference in the horsepower area. And the PIH works great, look at the times in my sig that I ran with the 94

john
I can't say that I have had the same findings as you.

When I was running ported E7's, shorty headers, & stock cam ( about 250 rwhp)I found that getting 36 degrees total spark in by
2600 rpm made a big diference at low to mid rpm's.

Working on the top one third of the maf transfer to fatten things up also made a big difference but in the upper rpm range.

Again, just my findings with my car.

One last time, I don't think the PIH is not effective, it just does not give as many options as a chip or tuning device.

Later
Grady
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Old 03-29-2004, 05:01 PM   #16
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Final5-0,
You are right there are more tuning options with the tweecer.
Do you have any numbers on how much you difference you made by using the tweecer (your tune)?
By just changing fuel pressure and timing you can get damn near 15 rwhp from the stock settings (my freind got 12 rwhp with a 93 cobra engine. And he made more hp with the stock airbox than a conical K&N. Results do vary car to car.

john
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12.96@106.16 1.88 60' (before cam and headers)
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MSD
E-cam
un-equal headers
2.5 o/r h-pipe
2.5 flowmaster catback
3.73's
ProM-77
pulleys
alumnium driveshaft

2003 cobra #1251
12.0@117 on stock F1's
denso IT 20's
amazon CAI
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Old 03-29-2004, 07:13 PM   #17
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I was considering the PIH but I have decided that this is not the best route for me,
Here is why.
The cost of a PIH and computer I would guess to be about $250.
A tweecer would be around $350-380 for the base model $5?? for the RT version.
With the PIH on the cobra as stated above hereis what you would need.
1. A MAF caled for 24lbers. (Cost to do so = $150-250).
2. Tuning capabilities from there? = None
3. Updated technology = None

Advantages of a tweecer
1. No need to change a MAF. Just plug in setting of any maf and go from there.
2. Plug in any injector size you want.
3. Complete control
4. More easily to adjust for a S trim
5. Multiple settings can be ran at the flick of a switch.
6. Tweecer can be run on most of the stangs eec so incase you sell your cobra and go with something else.

PIH kit with a MAF = about $400
Tweecer = $380.

This is how I made my decision.
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Old 03-29-2004, 08:12 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by sillycobras
Final5-0,
You are right there are more tuning options with the tweecer.
Do you have any numbers on how much you difference you made by using the tweecer (your tune)?
By just changing fuel pressure and timing you can get damn near 15 rwhp from the stock settings (my freind got 12 rwhp with a 93 cobra engine. And he made more hp with the stock airbox than a conical K&N. Results do vary car to car.

john
John

No I don't have any hard data for the example above cause at that time I was kinda learning what I could do with the Tweecer.

I would guess about 10 to 15 hp.

I knew that I wanted better heads and such so I was not going to waste $$$ at the dyno with that combo.

I don't doubt your claims a bit about fuel pressure and working with the dizzy cause I've seen some of the same things also.

Some might not agree but I think if you have done something to your combo to gain some power and say it gives you five hp, you most likely wont feel it.

I think its gonna take 10 to 15 hp and favoring to 15 more than 10 before you can really feel something in your backside and know you have made some gain.

Based on those thoughts I made the 10 to 15 hp guess with the old combo.

I can say for sure that with the combo in the sig I picked up about 10 hp and 15 tq by working on the top one third of the maf curve. I was at the dyno for a few baseline pulls and on the first pull the a/f was about 13.5 to 1 and the stock maf was just at the point of being pegged.

Due to the maf deal I was going to call it quits for the day and the dyno tech told me it would be fun to see what would happen if we made the a/f fatter and I said "WHY NOT"

We made one more pull and the a/f moved to about 12.5 to 1 for the numbers in the sig.

Later
Grady
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Old 03-29-2004, 08:31 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by wldtang
I was considering the PIH but I have decided that this is not the best route for me,
Here is why.
The cost of a PIH and computer I would guess to be about $250.
A tweecer would be around $350-380 for the base model $5?? for the RT version.
With the PIH on the cobra as stated above hereis what you would need.
1. A MAF caled for 24lbers. (Cost to do so = $150-250).
2. Tuning capabilities from there? = None
3. Updated technology = None

Advantages of a tweecer
1. No need to change a MAF. Just plug in setting of any maf and go from there.
2. Plug in any injector size you want.
3. Complete control
4. More easily to adjust for a S trim
5. Multiple settings can be ran at the flick of a switch.
6. Tweecer can be run on most of the stangs eec so incase you sell your cobra and go with something else.

PIH kit with a MAF = about $400
Tweecer = $380.

This is how I made my decision.
A few things about your post.

The PIH will not work with the stock ignition alone. You would need to add the price of a MSD box.

I really think you would be at a disadvantage with the base model Tweecer cause it does not give you data acquisition.

If you pull more air than the maf can handel no tuning device or chip can help with that issue.

If you are going for boost, i've seen some say that there are other tuning devices out there which are more suited for boost than the Tweecer. You will have to part with more $$$ for them than the Tweecer also.

Later
Grady
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Old 03-29-2004, 08:37 PM   #20
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So the cost of an MSD ignition will raise the cost of the conversion kit.

So with the cost of the MSD and the above items I listed, you are then in the Tweecer RT cost.

I don't see why the Tweecer RT would not do as well with boost. I am no expert but can't it do the same things as most of other devices? If not then what is its use?
Thanks for the feedback.
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Old 03-29-2004, 08:47 PM   #21
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One of the problems with the 94-95 EEC is and always has been the computer, the way the internal CPU calculates spark, fuel, ect. and why it calculates it that way. The 94-95 computer calculates the above listed variables by engine load, I.E. : turn on the A/C and you change the engine load, and the reason engine load is used is because 1994 was the first year of major California emision control standards, and Ford tried to find a balance between emisions and performance and still sell cars in California. Start installing bolt on performance parts, replace the cam, ect, and you change engine load and watch what happens to your engine performance. Burning a chip or installing PMS or the tweaker is really a band aid to a CPU that In my opinion is more concerned with emisions then performance, since the underlying program still uses engine load to compute variables. Thats why installing the Pro-m PIH is a good option for some because the 1993 level computer is more forgiving, less concerned with emisions and still can be modified with a chip, PMS, ect. to improve performane. Look in the lastest issue of 5.0 Mustang & super Fords and the 2 Mustangs that won King of the Street. One was a 94 GT with and A9L and chip and the other was a 95 with a PIH and A9L installed along with PMS.
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Old 03-29-2004, 08:55 PM   #22
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Can't you download settings from A9L an dump them into the cobra computer through the use of a Tweecer?
Or can't you change the settings within the cobra comp to match the A9L's and others?

Maybe someone that has a 94-95 cobra and has used the tweecer could provide some insight on how the tuning and responce to mods are.
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Old 03-29-2004, 09:34 PM   #23
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I don't know you can. On the tweeker web site they show different software for 87-93 EEC CPU's, the A9L, A9M, ect and the 1994-1995 EEC, My CPU for my 1994 GT was T4M0. also the 93 and below used a BAP sensor for barametric altitude. My guess is that its like the differance between a Pentium II mother board and a Pentium III mother board, they have different built in operating systems, or you can't take a Pentium II BIOS chip and install it in a Pentium III mother board and expect it to work
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Old 03-29-2004, 09:50 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by sillycobras
Final5-0,
By just changing fuel pressure and timing you can get damn near 15 rwhp from the stock settings
john
Fuel pressure settings wont last long. Initially you will make more power, but adaptive will take its toll and adjust the fuel injectors back to stoich.

Fuel pressure changes without a tuner/chip require unhooking the battery to clear KAM before you make a run. A tuner can disable that stuff for good.
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Old 03-29-2004, 11:57 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by wldtang
Can't you download settings from A9L an dump them into the cobra computer through the use of a Tweecer?
Or can't you change the settings within the cobra comp to match the A9L's and others?
Can't do that cause they are not the same family of pcm's.

I have downloaded the Cobra cal file (J4J1) into my original GT pcm (T4M0) which basically means that I now have a Cobra pcm.
This is possible cause the Cobra & GT are in the same family of pcm's.

Quote:
Maybe someone that has a 94-95 cobra and has used the tweecer could provide some insight on how the tuning and responce to mods are.
The Cobra pcm makes for a better platform to start a tune with than the GT pcm if your running larger inj's, heads, cam, & etc. Many folks have done this and if you want details you can check out the Tweecer sites. It has worked well for my combo for power as well as drivability.

Later
Grady
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Old 03-30-2004, 02:45 PM   #26
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I ran the PIH awhile back on my ATI blown 95 and it actually ran worse than my T4M0 did stock! Maybe my car was an exception, but it would not pull at all under boost would detonate easily... I went back to the T4M0 and an EEC Tuner and it ran great once tuned a little. True, the newer eecs are bad from a stock standpoint but much better than any A9L when they are properly tuned/chipped.

I now am running a Cobra J4J1 in my car with a DSS motor, Fcam (real biatch to get to idle!) and many other mods and my car drives like a stock car and idles at the stock 672rpm... with 30# injectors and all.. but it took me many months of tuning to get this thing right, and now I can change anything I want in my combo and tune it easily.

FWIW- You do not have to have an MSD to run the PIH... I never did when I had mine... Both cars are the same ignition, both TFI so why do you guys think you have to have aftermarket ignition? All you need is the PIH plug in harness, the A9L, a BAP sensor and fan controller. BTW the old PIH where you have to pull pins from the EEC is a PITA!! I dont suggest anyone get that kit, its total junk in my opinion.
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Old 03-30-2004, 03:34 PM   #27
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soon as I get the money my next mod is the Tweecer...
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Old 03-30-2004, 07:00 PM   #28
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You have to run aftermarket ignition with the PIH. If not your car will never make it past 4000 rpms. Trust me I know from experience. My splice for my msd came loose and the car wouldn't start. So I re-connected the stock ignition and everytime I hit 4000 rpms the car would just quit, lost all spark. It ran fine until 4000 rpms though.

john
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Old 03-31-2004, 07:42 AM   #29
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Can someone explain to me why you think you must have an aftermarket ignition?? think about it.. the A9L is controlling the same thing, there is still a TFI dizzy and coil. Nothing changed from the fox's to the SN95 as far as ignition goes... I ran my PIH on stock ignition and it never broke up or missed... and if you go to Pro M's site they mention nothing about needing an MSD...
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Old 03-31-2004, 08:42 AM   #30
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I'm telling you that you need an aftermarket ignition. I was told by Pro-M. They told me the stock ingnition can't handle the old style computers. I also had to get a mass air calibrated for 24lbs injectors too. Because 94-95 cobras come with mass air meters calibrated for 19lbs injectors even though they have 24lbs injectors.
My car ran 12.96@106.16 on pep boy ultra Z's with: PIH, MSD, ProM-77, underdrive pulleys, o/r h-pipe, flowmaster catback, and 3.73's. It wouldn't have ran that with the crappy J4J1 computer!

john
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94 cobra #1612
12.80@109.61 1.94 60'
12.96@106.16 1.88 60' (before cam and headers)
all times ran on pep boy futura ultra Z's
stock suspension
PIH
MSD
E-cam
un-equal headers
2.5 o/r h-pipe
2.5 flowmaster catback
3.73's
ProM-77
pulleys
alumnium driveshaft

2003 cobra #1251
12.0@117 on stock F1's
denso IT 20's
amazon CAI
diablo chip
magnaflow catted X-pipe
magnaflow catback
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Old 03-31-2004, 09:01 AM   #31
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I have a Tweecer. I just bought it about a month ago. Before, I had a stock Cobra computer and I am pushing 400rwhp and 10 psi. All I did was turn the distributor, use my BTM and adjustable fuel pressure regulator on the dyno and I walked away with great driveability and 400rwhp. The car idles and drives like stock and nobody even knows I have a blower.

With the Tweecer, I was able to adjust my MAF curve, eliminate the spark retard between shifts, adjust my fans, etc. I haven't really done anything major with it yet since the car drove well before it and I got the Tweecer for $440. You can find these thigns used.

If I look at a A9L bin file and J4J1 bin file, I can see that the J4J1 has more adjustability. I can also see that the A9L has a more agressive fuel and spark curve. I still think the Tweecer and stock Cobra computer is the best option. Now if you can find a PIH for a steal, I'd take that too. It all depends on the situation.

Henry
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Old 03-31-2004, 10:33 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by SSKiller
Can someone explain to me why you think you must have an aftermarket ignition?? think about it.. the A9L is controlling the same thing, there is still a TFI dizzy and coil. Nothing changed from the fox's to the SN95 as far as ignition goes... I ran my PIH on stock ignition and it never broke up or missed... and if you go to Pro M's site they mention nothing about needing an MSD...
Was not going to get into this, but you have said it twice now, and it is just wrong: the SN95 has a completely different method of spark control, not to mention the hardware is different. The EEC computes dwell, where the Fox did it at the distributor. You put a Fox EEC in a SN95, you get insufficent dwell and weak spark. Look under Scalars in Tweecer. Do you see spark_ignition_type? What do you suppose that does?

I knew when I screwed up and forgot to plug in the spark box after diddling the engine: all would run fine until I'd get on it, and it was like hitting a rev limiter at 4-4.5k. Normal driving I'd never notice it was not hooked up.

The instructions for the PIH state the need for aftermarket ignition.

Bob
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Old 03-31-2004, 11:49 AM   #33
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Hmmm... I wasn't trying to say you guys were wrong, sorry if I came across like that. Maybe the newer PIH kits are different or something, I had the really, really old PIH where I had to change all the pins in the EEC Harness.. a real PITA. And nowhere did it tell me I had to have an MSD.. maybe thats why my car ran like crap on the PIH... I did not know that you had to have it for the A9L.

I still learn something every day...
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Old 03-31-2004, 11:52 AM   #34
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Bob, can you elaborate more on the "spark ignition type" scalar? What is it telling the EEC? My J4J1 is set to 1.00000..
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Old 03-31-2004, 12:12 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by SSKiller
Bob, can you elaborate more on the "spark ignition type" scalar? What is it telling the EEC? My J4J1 is set to 1.00000..
The scalar is a switch. "1" is supposedly to set EEC controlled dwell ignition, and "0" for distributor (Fox) controlled dwell. This is from guys who know a lot more about the EEC strategies than me. I suppose you could change it to "0" and see what happens, like get spark blowout.

So at least for a SN95, you could use the Fox setup, not that I know why you'd want to. I was surprised how well the stock ignition handled a blower: no spark blowout. The A9L strategy has no spark_ignition_type scalar, or no one has found it yet. Probably because there was no other version of ignition when they designed that EEC. A shame, because it would be an easy switch to run the SN95 ignition properly with a PIH/A9L.

Bob

Last edited by robtmc; 03-31-2004 at 02:01 PM.
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