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Old 01-17-2007, 01:49 PM   #1
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No power out of a 347

For those who have been following this I've been hunting down the no power issue on my 347 motor I put together a number of years ago.

First trip to the drag strip yeilded a 14.7 @ 91 or 93 mph (can't remember) w/ a 2.1 60ftwith a AOD. (which I just figured out it had the incorrect firing order for the injectors when i converted it to a HO MAF system)

Now it's my daily driver I decided to sit down and figure out why it's not fast.
Current mods are...
347ci (ordered 9.0:1 pistons with the stroker kit)
GT40 P heads
Motorsport GT40p Headers
Cobra Intake manifold
Crower 512 cam
30lbs injectors
Pro M MAF calibrated for the 30#
1.7 FMS Roller Rockers.
and a tremec 3550
Car weights around 3000lbs

With a 1.9 60ft the car just ran a 14.3 @ 97 mph.
Ignition is advancing properly (car has trouble idleing below 18 BTDC w/spout out)
I was starting to think I had a cam timing issue. So I broke down and gave it a compression test today..

#1=122 psi
#2=120 psi
#3=121 psi then we put oil in it and it came up to 131psi with oil
#4=128 psi
#5=111 psi
#6=110 psi
#7=110 psi
#8=110 psi

note... 5-8 We're not done at WOT because I was not thinking.

I only have 10-12k on the motor, and that's only 2 visits to the drag strip. Car spends A lot of time sitting, but is now the Daily Driver.

Those numbers are VERY low IMHO. Could Cam timing being out cause numbers like this? I figure with my heads and the pistons I thought I bought I would expect 170ish. But I think this is the answer to the HP
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Old 01-17-2007, 02:09 PM   #2
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those compression numbers look low, mine were all in the 150's-160's.

What is your shift points? If I remeber correctly the 512 makes power up till 6300? maybe your not reving it enough and with you 9:1 compression its just not making the power. Also seems like those 30#'s are overkill for your combo.
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Old 01-17-2007, 02:11 PM   #3
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It had 24lbs in there up untill a month ago. Shifting around 5500rpm... and it's not exactly pulling hard at that point.
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Old 01-17-2007, 02:13 PM   #4
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it is because you have P heads and headers on that motor. It cant breathe! Also, something else is going on with the motor, as those #s do look a little low for your compression.
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Old 01-17-2007, 02:15 PM   #5
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Hey the plan is to put better heads on it... but I'll be mighty pissed if I put some nice heads and what not on it and it still runs 14's because I never solved the original problem. So i'm trying to solve it before I tear it down.
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Old 01-17-2007, 02:19 PM   #6
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i think you already have to. Unless you havent broken in the rings yet, those compression numbers are quite low and indicate a problem. even if the rings has not fully sat yet, those numbers are still low.

The cam could have some effect? But THAT much? i'm not sure. you'll have to ask kato or jay allen about that one. I think it is partly an internal problem. Did you install the cam correctly?

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Old 01-17-2007, 02:45 PM   #7
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I had the Machine shop assemble the short block when they notched the block for the stroker. So I never saw the cam timing. I just assumed they would have done it correctly. I'm thinking the engine has somewhere between 10-15k on it since assembly back in 2001. And it's never been very fast from day one.
The oil only causing the compression to go up slightly says to me it's likely to be a ring issue. But it's all guess work.
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Old 01-17-2007, 03:20 PM   #8
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I'm banking on it being cam timing way out but...

Ok lets pretend I've got pistons that are just very low compression.... how much compression gain can I expect from going with some Canfield 54cc heads?
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Old 01-17-2007, 11:24 PM   #9
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Just curious, your not using a universal balancer are you?
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Old 01-18-2007, 09:26 AM   #10
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Ford Racing crankshaft dampener. Had the lincoln one on there till about 6 months ago.
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Old 01-18-2007, 11:16 AM   #11
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you need to do a cylinder leakdown test on the motor when it,s warmed up to see if the rings are not sealing, or the valve seats are leaking. also what car is it what year pcm need more info

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Old 01-18-2007, 12:02 PM   #12
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Lightbulb

A clue might be your need to re-sequence the injectors for your cam. If you have done this, you need to do 1 more thing.......

I had the same problem on a 302 that I converted to factory fuel injection. After re-sequencing the injectors, it just seemed flat, and idled a little choppy. After doing much research on the system and talking with Hank Dertian (head engineer) at Ford, I found the left O2 sensor controls the left bank of injectors, and the right does the same for the right bank. After re- sequencing, it really screws up the controls- and the banks start fighting each other.

I asked Hank what I could do, and he suggested soldering a wire between the two SIGNAL wires coming from the O2 Sensors, near the connector for the computer. This will allow the computer to read an average of the two sides. I tried it and it worked!! It ran much, much better.

I hope this helps!!
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Old 01-18-2007, 12:41 PM   #13
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A clue might be your need to re-sequence the injectors for your cam. If you have done this, you need to do 1 more thing.......

I had the same problem on a 302 that I converted to factory fuel injection. After re-sequencing the injectors, it just seemed flat, and idled a little choppy. After doing much research on the system and talking with Hank Dertian (head engineer) at Ford, I found the left O2 sensor controls the left bank of injectors, and the right does the same for the right bank. After re- sequencing, it really screws up the controls- and the banks start fighting each other.

I asked Hank what I could do, and he suggested soldering a wire between the two SIGNAL wires coming from the O2 Sensors, near the connector for the computer. This will allow the computer to read an average of the two sides. I tried it and it worked!! It ran much, much better.

I hope this helps!!

Re-sequence the injectors? Do explain.
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Old 01-18-2007, 01:03 PM   #14
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Although those compression numbers are low, especially for a new engine, it is not the total problem. My original engine with well over 100,000 miles yeilded similar comp. numbers but still ran low 13's at over 108 MPH. It had the full TFS street package.

There is something else going on here. Do not focus on your comp #'s! There might be something with the injector issue. Is there anything that the car is doing that would indicate a problem I.E. surging, bad idle, missing ect...

Doing a diagnosis over the computer is hard enough but with as litlle info as you have supplied we don't have much to go by! We need to know more than "it is slow"
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Old 01-18-2007, 01:26 PM   #15
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Hmm, I'll seperate this up...
Since built
Low power
VERY rough idle
Ran lean
Kinda dead below 2500rpm.

since 30lbs injectors and new MAF and re arranging the firing order on the injectors.

Slightly smoother idle
Runs VERY poorly under 1500rpm when cold
Back fires through intake when cold
Runs much better under 2500rpm Top end exactly the same.
Smells like it's running lean but the plugs show it's not.
Still low power.
Very poor around town gas milage (like 6-8mpg) still getting 17-18 mpg highway.
Area of ok running is very narrow when setting the timing. It's happy around 18 btdc, +/- in either direction it starts to die.
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Old 01-18-2007, 06:18 PM   #16
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you need a tuner to look at it to fine out whats going on or someone with a tweecer that thing is screwd up should run better then that. your pcm cannot deal with the changes you have made unless it,s tuned. or it will run like crap.

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Old 01-18-2007, 07:09 PM   #17
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Sounds definitely like a timing issue.Popping back when cold tells me low timing.My 347 did that with the timing retarded for the 200 shot when cold!!Try advancing the timing without a timing light and see if power improves.Don't move the dizzy too far but put more timing in it to see if it helps.It will start pinging when too much is in it!
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Old 01-18-2007, 09:09 PM   #18
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"Ford Racing crankshaft dampener" what row of timing marks are you setting your timing at (back row-close to the engine or the front row-next to the pulley)
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Old 01-18-2007, 09:20 PM   #19
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What about the fuel system? Do you have a FP gauge on the car? What pump is in it?

Might be an ignition problem. Did you change the coil?

Might be a computer problem - try a different computer in the car.

Good Luck getting it squared away!
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Old 01-18-2007, 09:22 PM   #20
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Doesnt sound like a combo issue, sounds like something is backwards. Timing, disturbtor and fuel. Look into those and good luck.
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Old 01-18-2007, 10:24 PM   #21
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What kind of exhaust are you running? I would focus on those comp numbers. As they are all low I doubt you are looking at ring problems. Unless the cyls were honed incorrectly or the rings were used or something like that. Do you have catalytic convertors, is the exhaust plugged? A stock 5.0l is in the 150 range on comp. Unless you have like 7:1 compresion it should be higher than 110. The cam will not cause that big of a difference. Do a leakdown test, and also unbolt the exhaust at the headers and just see if it makes a difference.
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Old 01-18-2007, 10:51 PM   #22
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I'd focus on the valves hanging open. Check the preload and pushrod lengths. And also as stated above, cam timing...did your assembler degree it?
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Old 01-18-2007, 11:19 PM   #23
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my 347 ran like crap with the stock tune, stumbling, backfiring, hesitation and low power, i had it tuned and had a chip burned and it runs like crazy,
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Old 01-18-2007, 11:26 PM   #24
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347 cubes and P heads...I'd say that must have something to do with it.
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Old 01-19-2007, 08:50 AM   #25
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Quote:
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"Ford Racing crankshaft dampener" what row of timing marks are you setting your timing at (back row-close to the engine or the front row-next to the pulley)


front marks next to the pulley.

Computer is a 93 cobra (yes the MAF is for a cobra).

Never had it tuned (don't know where to get it done)

I've advanced the timing till it pinged and then back a smidge a few months back and the power felt about the same.

The assembler of the short block was a good machine shop that I would assume Degree'd the cam but I'm starting to have my doubts. The guy that worked at the shop that assembled my motor built a bunch of racing 5.0's.... however he's not working there anymore, I believe he retired.

With a Valve hanging opened for as many miles as this car's had no power I surely would have burned one by now. But that is a thought.
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Old 01-19-2007, 10:04 AM   #26
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the computer is part of the problem. it uses 19lb maf but runs on 24 lb inj. now you have 30lb inj n it. i think it needs to be taken apart an reringed an honed. i had the same issue when i built my 331, thats why its a 333. i personally would put bigger heads, intake and cam
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Old 01-19-2007, 10:26 AM   #27
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the Cobra computer is programed for 24's. And thats what I just pulled out.... And it didn't make any power then. I put 30's in planning on going with bigger heads/cam/intake etc.
Part of me is saying pull it apart and go from there. Part of me is saying. Figure out whats wrong before you start throwing parts at it.
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Old 01-19-2007, 11:27 AM   #28
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24's is plenty for a h/c/i 347. If you plan on adding a power adder or dry shot then go up. Besides that stay with the 24's.

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Old 01-19-2007, 11:51 AM   #29
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Quote:
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24's is plenty for a h/c/i 347. If you plan on adding a power adder or dry shot then go up. Besides that stay with the 24's.

Eric
To late now... I had local mustang guys telling me the oppsite... My MAF was dead at the time so it made sence to do it for some point in the future.
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Old 01-19-2007, 12:21 PM   #30
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Have you got a dyno session to see where power is being made and what kind of power. That way it takes out the driver error from your times.

Hope it all works out for you.
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Old 01-19-2007, 01:17 PM   #31
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Quote:
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Have you got a dyno session to see where power is being made and what kind of power. That way it takes out the driver error from your times.

Hope it all works out for you.
I can Kind of take the drivers error out of the equation. I've run SCCA ProSolo Series for the past number of years which involves drag race starts and I've done a fair amount in all kinds of varible conditions. So I'm not the best drag racer but I don't think I'm a complete idiot. Both my runs this last time at the strip were 1.90's 60fts.
However the varible on here is that I bought the Tremec 3550 from a corral member a number of years ago. 2nd gear's synchro's are shot so the 1-2 shift is slowish. if you get in a hurry and just pull it into gear quick it grinds, if you pull it in slowly it goes in nicely. The rest of the gears you can click off very quickly. I realize a slow shift from 1-2 is hurting... but the MPH at the end should be well over 100mph even with a slow shift.
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Old 01-19-2007, 01:27 PM   #32
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Quote:
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I'd focus on the valves hanging open. Check the preload and pushrod lengths. And also as stated above, cam timing...did your assembler degree it?
^^^
I would check that out. Have you tried pulling codes from the computer?
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Old 01-19-2007, 03:41 PM   #33
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Front seal is leaking so I'll pull it apart next week. If the cam is correct..... Then the heads are coming off!
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347 stroker , Crower 512 , GT40P's, Cobra Manifold , BBK 65mm t-body , 30lbs injectors, Pro M MAF. DIY intake and exhaust.
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Old 01-19-2007, 03:58 PM   #34
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good luck man....
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Old 01-19-2007, 09:57 PM   #35
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THATS YOUR PROBLEM THERE PERIOD. pull you dizzy & set your dizzy up on the back row. I did the same thing to mine (Ford Racing crankshaft dampener)when I put it together by mistake. Your timing will show right the way you have it but you are way out on timing. You will see a BIG differice.

Last edited by fordjunky; 01-20-2007 at 05:34 PM.
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