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Old 10-17-2006, 08:29 PM   #1
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driveability/current thinking on THROTTLE POSition sensor setting?

I'm having some driveability issues that just started. I've got a '91 EFI setup (see sig) and recently after I go around a circular on ramp at slight throttle opening but med rpm's (3000-4000) and then nail it as I begin to merge, the car falls on it's face. It's like for 1-2 after I go WOT someone cuts all the fuel. After it begins to pull, it pulls harder at 1/2 - 3/4 throttle than at full. As you open the throttle, you can hear the intake sound but no real corresponding acceleration. Could this be TPS? I've heard that setting the TPS to<1 volt at closed throttle isn't necessary because it resets itself everytime you crank the engine. Help!!

thanks guys
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Old 10-17-2006, 09:04 PM   #2
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Check your TPS. If it's between 1.1v and 0.7v, then LEAVE IT ALONE.


If anyone tells you different, tell them to shove their STUPID RICER MOD UP THEIR @**! If they give you any sh*t, send them to me. I'll rip them a new one bigger than the Grand Canyon.

See:
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/te...g-TPS-FAQ.html

Quick Summary:
You never have to adjust a Ford TPS unit on a Ford TB (that has the idle set to spec)- NEVER!!
For people that adjust their idle higher than spec to keep their engine running with their setup, or people that use a NON-Ford TPS, then they may have to adapt the TPS unit (by making slots) so that it reads from ~0.6v to ~1.1v at idle.


To stop foolish people splewing BS they read...

BTW: I taught this stuff and I've been designing for over a dozen years. Where did these other people get their STUPID BOGUS **RICER** INFO? Yes, many companies also have the MORONIC advice to "adjust" the TPS. Consider this, ANY EE that would say to set the TPS to a value within a ~0.1v range is a TOTAL MORON or on crack. *I* would have flunked that moron in his/her first year!

Also, ANY site/person that say to adjust the TPS is CLUELESS. If they have a science degree, they should have it REVOKED! You can NOT adjust an non-adjustable part - PERIOD! ANY one with a REAL science degree should care about using ACCURATE/CORRECT terms! For people that have to slot their TPS because of the idle speed, then they ADAPT their TPS - NOT "adjust". Consider that when you read any BS on websites.
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Old 10-17-2006, 11:20 PM   #3
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This might be reaching, but I'm sensing that you don't think the TPS should be adjusted Thanks for the info, Bro. Is there a possibility (within reason) that the TPS can fail at the upper 1/2 of it's range. I'm trying to guess what to look for with my crappy performance.

Mark
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Old 10-17-2006, 11:43 PM   #4
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Check the EEC-IV....use it as an informant (run the KOEO/KOER self-tests)...check for a code 63 as a memory code....(I would clear codes first, drive it around for 5-10 minutes, and then run the self-tests). Keep in mind that for engine performance, it doesn't matter if you think the TPS is the problem....it's what the EEC-IV is working with that's important.....

Check the TPS voltage output through its working range closed-open-closed with a VOM and check for spikes/drops @op temp. A graph of a bad TPS output would look like......



BTW, as stangPlus2Birds mentioned, the TPS in EEC-IV systems, is NOT and adjustable unit, if you want to adjust it....YCYDYP, but it won't make a difference as long as it's between .5 - 1.19 vdc....you may also want to read this very short version of "some" of the TPS logic...
LUK what you find out.
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Old 10-18-2006, 12:09 AM   #5
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I had a similar problem, cleaning my MAF cleared it up.
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Old 10-18-2006, 01:12 AM   #6
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If your going to mess with the TPS, use the Ford procedure for dialing it in.

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Old 10-18-2006, 10:12 AM   #7
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Jim.

Take a look at what you refer to as the "Ford TPS setting procedure", and most importantly its source.



1. No company (tech/engineering department) will specify a "company" procedure that requires their parts from being mutilated.
2. A change in the standard procedure will require a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB).....none exists with those instructions, so it's not official.
3. That set of instructions literally invalidate the ECM software engineering dept within Ford.
4. That page looks like the written "script" given to "Customer Service" noob employees......it's not an official document....why?
5. Check mass air meter based on ....no reference to ANY self-test or "Pinpoint Test DC" (Ford's test name for MAF related codes).....so it's not a valid one...even if it has FMC's banner on the header.
6. Now....the following is an extract of the 591 pages long OFFICIAL GUFB EEC-IV Strategy Book....
Quote:
The variable RATCH is the output of a ratchet algorithm which continuously seeks the minimum throttle angle corresponding to a CLOSED THROTTLE position. This alleviates the necessity to set the throttle position sensor at an absolute position and compensates for system changes and differences between vehicles. The ratchet algorithm uses filtered throttle position for the determination of RATCH.
7. If you want to continue mutilating parts, and making unnecessary adjustments.....YCYDYP.....
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Old 10-19-2006, 12:58 AM   #8
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Joel,
The "source" is Ford Racing Performance, because they sell parts they are under the "Marketing, Sales, and Service" group. You can call up the tech-line yourself and ask for them to fax you the document. (586) 468-1356
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Old 10-19-2006, 02:00 AM   #9
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tear 'em up Joel!!




Joel knows his ****, he helped me a lot when i had my TPS problem (even though it ended up being my own dumbass's baf voltmeter that was the problem) my TPS is at like .85 riight now, with no adverse effects, just make sure it doesnt go to 1.4 or your car will run like smashed ass.
+1 for checking for voltage spikes in tps. should go fom ~1v to just under 5v, anything other than that is fubar
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Old 10-19-2006, 04:09 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBowy View Post
Joel,
The "source" is Ford Racing Performance, because they sell parts they are under the "Marketing, Sales, and Service" group. You can call up the tech-line yourself and ask for them to fax you the document. (586) 468-1356
when you read an official ford tech document, you will know it...this isn't one. read the GUFB doc if you want any real knowledge of the ford eec-iv. i can only assume the instructions on the document that you provided used the smaller range because it is well within the actual range that it should be in, to provide a safeguard. you've been around awhile i know, so why would you question anything that stangPlus2Birds or Joel5.0 have to say? they never offer advice that they are not positive is true. again, read the GUFB document and see the difference between the doc you provided and an internal ford tech doc that was meant for ford's own engineers
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Old 10-19-2006, 11:23 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBowy View Post
Joel,
The "source" is Ford Racing Performance, because they sell parts they are under the "Marketing, Sales, and Service" group. You can call up the tech-line yourself and ask for them to fax you the document. (586) 468-1356
I know....but it's wrong/bad information, mis-information. Again, no company (automotive or otherwise) will specify a procedure that requires their parts (or replacements) to be mutilated, and the reason is simple.....lawsuits for selling a faulty design....+ it goes against all the documented tech procedures, specifications and design characteristics of the system.

Think about it,..... Ford designed and installed a computer controlled system that requires such an absolute value for the TPS voltage?.....if this was true, their software and hardware engineers were less than mediocre and a carbureted system will definitely be more effective than EFI in dealing with normal system variance.....+ they would have been in non-compliance with the OBD-I requirements of the times.
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Old 10-19-2006, 05:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MellowSpace View Post
I had a similar problem, cleaning my MAF cleared it up.

Would removing the air filter and spraying carb cleaner into the MAS with the engine running do the trick?
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Old 10-19-2006, 05:23 PM   #13
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Would removing the air filter and spraying carb cleaner into the MAS with the engine running do the trick?
Bad idea. It takes about 30 seconds to remove the MAF from the car, and you can shoot the element itself with cleaner.
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Old 10-19-2006, 05:50 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GodPossessed View Post
Would removing the air filter and spraying carb cleaner into the MAS with the engine running do the trick?
i doubt that would work very well...best to remove the sensor from the meter and clean it with a q-tip that you have sprayed with carb cleaner or better yet, with electrical contact cleaner.




JimBowy -
Joel, stangplus2birds, and i can explain why the TPS only needs to be between .49-1.2vdc. that is because the base (closed throttle) voltage is recorded upon each startup, and the ECM determines entrance into part throttle when the voltage rises a certain number of volts (rather than determining entrance based on a preset voltage) and also does the same for WOT (2.71vdc over the base tps voltage, again not a predetermined voltage, but 2.71vdc over the closed value recorded initially at startup). can you explain why it would need to be .96-.99vdc?

the point is we're not here to argue, we're here to find the truth. if you have some evidence, or at least a valid explanation for why you are right, please share it.
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Old 10-19-2006, 06:51 PM   #15
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Thanks all - I'll report back

Mark
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Old 10-19-2006, 07:19 PM   #16
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okay here is a scenerio for you... this is actually my situation with my custom setup and roots-style supercharger...

say you modify your car and to get the car to idle, you need to turn the idle set screw on your throttle body - by doing so you increase the initial TPS voltage until it is above the 1.1v

to get the car to idle, you need to get the voltage somewhere back between your 0.7-1.1v range. to do so you need to slot the TPS and bring it back within that range

now the Ford document states you want to hit .96-.99v, but I can appreciate being within 0.7-1.1v could work. isn't this a practical example of where the TPS must be slotted to get the car running?
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Old 10-19-2006, 08:16 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBowy View Post
okay here is a scenerio for you... this is actually my situation with my custom setup and roots-style supercharger...

say you modify your car and to get the car to idle, you need to turn the idle set screw on your throttle body - by doing so you increase the initial TPS voltage until it is above the 1.1v

to get the car to idle, you need to get the voltage somewhere back between your 0.7-1.1v range. to do so you need to slot the TPS and bring it back within that range

now the Ford document states you want to hit .96-.99v, but I can appreciate being within 0.7-1.1v could work. isn't this a practical example of where the TPS must be slotted to get the car running?
Yes it is, and a very valid one....but you might be masking a problem somewhere else. Provided the TB is the OEM, the idle issue may lie in the IAC, or a mechanical problem within the TB..... you may install a IAC Bypass Spacer...which is part of Ford TSB 91-25-7 to deal with the rolling idle condition due to TB/IAC sludge deposits, to compensate for your setup.

Quote:
Quick Summary:
You never have to adjust a Ford TPS unit on a Ford TB (that has the idle set to spec)- NEVER!!
For people that adjust their idle higher than spec to keep their engine running with their setup, or people that use a NON-Ford TPS,
then they may have to adapt the TPS unit (by making slots) so that it reads from ~0.6v to ~1.1v at idle.
From http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/te...g-TPS-FAQ.html which I definitely recommend you check.

Keep in mind, if an aftermarket TB is used, the TPS may then, have to be modified/changed....not to set it to the mythical .9999vdc setting, but to make sure it's within the .5 - 1.1 vdc system required range.
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Old 10-19-2006, 10:18 PM   #18
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Guys keep one thing in mind.Joel is the man.Hes constantly & currently helping me & providing good valid info.
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Old 10-22-2006, 10:34 AM   #19
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OK - I got some electrical contact cleaner and did some spraying. I tried to access the MAS element directly, but it seems that on the Pro-M 80 the screws for removing the element are a Torx type but require a hollow-tipped driver. (I don't have one). So, I used the supplied tube on the spray can and gave the element a good sraying down through the air passage. While I was at it I also sprayed the MAS connector plug, the distributor connector and the spout plug. My driveability problem is mostly gone. I do get a slight hesitation when I go full throttle after several miles of low rpm highway cruising. But it's much better than it was.

Mark
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