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Old 03-13-2006, 11:34 AM   #1
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What cam can i use with stock heads ?

I have decided to put a cam in my motor that is going in my fox. I want a BIG sound and good power off of the start. Because I am using a T-5 trans i will need a lower rpm range cam. I am getting a Lunati but im not sure which one i can get.I know I need a Hydralic Flat Tappet cam but im not sure on how big i can go. I DO NOT want to and WILL NOT add newer springs and pushrods and valves. The heads are re-done, close chamber heads and they will be ported also so they are sufficent. I was just wondering how big can i go without any problems with the springs and pushrods. if anyone knows anything about this please comment and help me out, thanks a bunch. P.S. the motor will have a edelbrock rpm intake and a 600 holley if that matters at all.

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Old 03-13-2006, 12:14 PM   #2
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The stock cam is great....add 1.72 RR for a little bump in power. If you don't want to swap heads or springs or valves.......you are just wasting time. Call Crane/Comp/Lunati....whoever, they will suggest a cam for you...I am sure there is SOMETHING that will work. But for the 5.0HO, the heads are the MAJOR fallback and the cam you already have is as good as it gets.
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Old 03-13-2006, 01:30 PM   #3
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non-HO cam

You have a non-roller motor - flat tappet. This is prolly not an HO cam - pre-1985. With a 5-speed, you can use a higher rpm cam due to no torque converter - look at cam specs that say "5-speed recommended".
You may need new pushrods if you can't set rockers. If you don't have good heads, all you will get is BIG sound and no go. Do a search and you'll see that others have been there and you will learn much from these forums about your application. You have gears to handle a BIG cam?
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Old 03-13-2006, 01:34 PM   #4
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What yeat and type of car did your engine come out of?

Did you get a date code on the heads or are they the ones that came with the engine?
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Old 03-13-2006, 01:34 PM   #5
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even ported, E7s don't flow past .520 and cannot support more than 300 rwhp so I hope your plans aren't that big.

First off: Drop-in valve springs (you don't have to change ANYTHING except the spring) are like $60 through summit or jegs. That is cheap insurance, especially if you drop a valve and blow the entire motor apart. If you are serious about being that cheap, get your car dyno tuned and make sure the valves can keep up.

Finally, Comp makes some decent flat tappet grinds. I would check out something like an XE262/268. BUT you should check your valves to make sure they can handle it. IE on an actual compressor to test lbs rating/bind.

The XE268 sounds pretty wicked at idle in a 289, I'll see if I can't find the clip.
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Old 03-13-2006, 08:57 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetfalcon
even ported, E7s don't flow past .520 and cannot support more than 300 rwhp so I hope your plans aren't that big.

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Old 03-13-2006, 09:58 PM   #7
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The motor is out of a 76 bronco. It has been rebuilt with 70K on it. The heads have been built later with less miles on them. The heads are close chamber heads with pretty big intake ports, i am porting them on the exhaust side to help with power. I do want big sound and if the power is not avaliable without changing springs and pushrods and valves then i will just get one without a big lift and just a good duration. I do want a good cam sound and the power would be nice but if I ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO CHANGE SPRINGS AND PUSHRODS...then i will not put a cam in the motor.
I do not have to have a huge ass cam either so if there is a cam that i can get to use with my stocK heads then I will get it. I am partial to lunati cams.

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Old 03-13-2006, 10:05 PM   #8
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If all you want is "big" sound do what the Honda crowd does. What do they call those things that add "big" sound? Oh Yeah....Fartcans...for that big sound, no go style!!!
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Old 03-13-2006, 10:12 PM   #9
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ha ha ha...very funny. ummmm im not very fond of the fart-can look. I want a cam with some good sound but i am not changing my heads at all,except for the porting. thanks for the comment though
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Old 03-13-2006, 10:28 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dedge
I have decided to put a cam in my motor that is going in my fox. I want a BIG sound and good power off of the start.
Just the fact that that statement was made means you have a lot of learning and research to do. All I heard was you asking how big a cam could be installed, but never once which cam would make the best power for your combo and lack of willingness to install proper valve springs with it.
You said you'd just do without big lift and go with a longer duration, do you know what effect that will have on your power curve? Better find out, cause I don't think you'll be happy. No offense intended, I'd hate for you to put a lumpy cam in there and find your power curve is flat and low.
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Old 03-13-2006, 10:40 PM   #11
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yeah i agree with you totally, however, maybe my problem is i figured ther peopel who would reply to this would have real advice and knowledge on this. I guess most are just people who are looking to beat my question to death... no offense on my part either but
1: i do want a better cam for my motor
2: of course i want more power
3: i have been told that i can do a decent cam without changing anything without bad side effects!
4: i dont see why something like this http://www.holley.com/00064.asp wont work with the stock heads and valves,pushrods, etc.
Yes it's not big and it won't sound god-awefull but it will(should) help with the power and sound but mostly power, which is the most important thing.
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Old 03-13-2006, 10:51 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dedge
yeah i agree with you totally, however, maybe my problem is i figured ther peopel who would reply to this would have real advice and knowledge on this. I guess most are just people who are looking to beat my question to death... no offense on my part either but
1: i do want a better cam for my motor
2: of course i want more power
3: i have been told that i can do a decent cam without changing anything without bad side effects!
4: i dont see why something like this http://www.holley.com/00064.asp wont work with the stock heads and valves,pushrods, etc.
Yes it's not big and it won't sound god-awefull but it will(should) help with the power and sound but mostly power, which is the most important thing.
I don't think most people install a cam for sound. They install it in an effort for a lot of torque, horsepower or a combination of both. Sound (via camshaft) is only secondary. If you want sound play with your exhaust.

People are giving you advise, but just not what you want to hear. You want to hear that you can slap in xyz and not change/ check anything.....sorry, but it just isn't going to happen.
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Old 03-13-2006, 11:03 PM   #13
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Seriously, NO DISRESPECT is meant by this. Look in the HFT section of Comp Cams, Lunati, Crane or whomever. Flip to the pages that say *RV* or *Towing cams*. Use a 1.7 RR and be done with it. P-V will be ok. I suspect your springs will be ok. But w/o proper information, no one can if they'll work or not. If this does not float your boat, then I don't know what to tell. But for OTS and the type of stuff you have, that is what you need.

BTW people, yes I understand this is a Mustang and not a Bronco. Its the style of cam he needs is why I said what I did.
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Old 03-13-2006, 11:18 PM   #14
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Quote:
I don't think most people install a cam for sound. They install it in an effort for a lot of torque, horsepower or a combination of both. Sound (via camshaft) is only secondary. If you want sound play with your exhaust.

People are giving you advise, but just not what you want to hear. You want to hear that you can slap in xyz and not change/ check anything.....sorry, but it just isn't going to happen.
I really want the cam for power ,of course but yes the sound goes with it and i want as much camming sound as i can get, thats what i mean. i want a functional,practical,and capable cam that will not require me to change springs,pushrods, and valves... they make em and i just wanted to know what sizes were in that category, i figured if i asked on a forum i would get alot of knowledge on what sizes people have and what is possible with what i want to do. thankyou all for the comments and advice and i appreciate the help and collective critisism. you may not believe it but i do appreciate the help. im just kinda flustered cause i stil dont know what size cam i can run with stock heads... i suppose ill go to the local speed shop(engine builder) and tell him what i want. he will be able to tell me FOR SURE what i can and cannot run without side effects and bent pushrods..etc.
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Old 03-14-2006, 10:38 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dedge
i figured if i asked on a forum i would get alot of knowledge on what sizes people have and what is possible with what i want to do. i suppose ill go to the local speed shop(engine builder) and tell him what i want. he will be able to tell me FOR SURE what i can and cannot run without side effects and bent pushrods..etc.
You've already had one of the very best small block ford camshaft guys in the world reply in this thread. I'm sure that Ed Curtis will see this thread and reply too and he is one of the very best too. If you think that your local speed shop owner can steer you in the right direction then go for it but I'd put my money on Jay Allen or Ed Curtis any day over a local guy. Ed and Jay have built championship winning cams.
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Old 03-14-2006, 11:56 AM   #16
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Dedge - do yourself a favor -- follow Jay's advice above. He does this for a living. The cams you seem to want ('big sound' - I assume that means lumpy idle) are also likely to really hurt the bottom end - which is something else you want. They also generally require more spring pressure than you're gonna get with the stock springs. If you want to educate yourself about cams and how they do what they do - go here and open ever tab and read. http://www.wighat.com/fcr3/ It's the most misunderstood and complex piece of the engine. And most folks simply guess at the one they want based on duration and lift --- which is no way to pick a cam.

Don't guess - follow Jay's advice -- or better yet -- hire him to help you with your cam choice.
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Old 03-14-2006, 04:55 PM   #17
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bigger is not always better.
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Old 03-14-2006, 05:02 PM   #18
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A small restricted inlet needs a lot of ramp rate, with as little of seat timing as possible. By saying "I DO NOT want to and WILL NOT add newer springs ", you are basically shooting yourself in the foot if you have the stock-like springs that have 100lbs at seat and 230lbs or so open. Plus a flat tappet will be able to get by a little easier than the heavy hyd roller stuff.
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Old 03-14-2006, 05:09 PM   #19
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Do you know what the open and closed seat pressure of the springs in the heads currently are? what lift they are rated to? Do you know the size of the valves? Do you know what size of valve reliefs (or if they are even there) are in the pistons? These are all very important pieces of information that you need before you go and "slap" a cam in the engine so that it "Sounds cool".

Jay has given you the best advice possible with the information you have provided (which isn't much). If you want more advice, ante up on the information level and I'm sure he can narrow it down a fair bit.

You are asking us a very blind question here, and given the nature of the question, its very difficult to provide any sound advice on the subject. That being said, I'm now very partial to the Custom camshaft idea after talking extensively with Jay but in order to go that route, you need to know about your engine, things like Intake flow, head flow @ lift, valve size, chamber size....etc all pieces of information you either don't have or haven't provided.

Until you give this thread some clarity, what you've got in terms of advice is about as good as its going to get.
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Old 03-14-2006, 05:35 PM   #20
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Dedge - Buddy can help too - he did mine and is the author of the stuff at the site I linked above. Top notch.....
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Old 03-14-2006, 05:47 PM   #21
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I want a smokin' hot girlfriend.

She will be low maintence.

She will not nag or ***** at me.

She will please me whenever I want.

Oh, and she'll be the one to work while I play.

Here's a hint, they don't exist.

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Old 03-14-2006, 05:51 PM   #22
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Seems to me the cam is the LAST thing you want to change in a modern motor, kind of a final adjustment to everything else. Outside of a full rebuild I don't think I would ever bother.

BTW every time I read it that 5.0 Volvo sounds fun.

Make that a smokin hot GF that works in a Mustang shop and wants to borrow your car to try some stuff out on, and you get to keep any you like.

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Old 03-14-2006, 06:41 PM   #23
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I do not know the specs of my heads and all that stuff, they are stock(with a slight shave job) thanks again for all the comments. I went by the local speed shop( which just so happens to build very powerful, race winning all-out, very serious, drag motors and very good engines overall. I asked him, with what i have, what can i do as far as a cam. he said that i could go with a .480"- .515" lift with my heads BUT I WOULD HAVE TO GET SPRINGS THAT MATCH THE CAM! So i was steered wrong by someone else....so what. yes i do belive what yall tell me and im not a dumb ass, i just dont know cams like the rest of the motor. Im not sure if i will get a cam now because i didnt want to spend $400 for the cam ,springs, and all the other hardware that comes in those matched kits(ya know what i mean.) He also said that if i didnt get one that big then you really wouldnt hear it as much as i wanted....so it may just not be for the motor i have , right now. I just really wanted the extra torque and rpm range...we'll see what happens

Jay- i see what you put and i will do what you said and check out the towing cams. With a towing ca,(not too big) i should be able to use my springs, valves,and pushrods right? i will just need roller rockers? why are they neccessary, i thought they were just for less friction and more powre....im just asking because i dont really know. thanks anyways

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Old 03-14-2006, 06:45 PM   #24
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Well, the statement that pretty much encapsulates this entire scenario is this:

Its all about the combo.
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Old 03-14-2006, 06:53 PM   #25
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Pull a vacuum line or two. Lope lope lope and you won't have to change the parts you're insistent on not changing.
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Old 03-14-2006, 06:53 PM   #26
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yeah i know...NOW. i was mis-led i guess, i thought it wasnt a problem to run a bigger cam with the stock heads and valvetrain.... the vacuum line idea is not so hot

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Old 03-14-2006, 07:00 PM   #27
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Here is a link to a cam that i think would be a good choice for me.it's not a "big" cam but it will improve power..tell me if i'm wrong please. http://www.holley.com/06605LK.asp
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Old 03-15-2006, 10:47 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dedge
Here is a link to a cam that i think would be a good choice for me.it's not a "big" cam but it will improve power..tell me if i'm wrong please. http://www.holley.com/06605LK.asp
I'm not disagreeing that cam gurus like Ed and Jay are THE men to contact when you want to squeeze every last ounce of power from your combo – but I don’t think Dedge is anywhere near this point. I think all he wants is something better than his stock piece – a ’76 smog cam ground back in the days of the Jimmy Carter fuel crisis.

Dedge – you don’t need roller-rockers, and more than likely you won’t need pushrods – especially with the mild grinds you are looking at. (Check them for straightness by rolling them on a piece of glass.) The issue you could run into would be valve-float if your springs are not up-to-snuff. Of course – if the springs are bad, that could happen with your stock cam too. Most (if not all) cam manufactures will list a recommended spring. The last Comp Cam I chose (XE-262) was just on the edge of recommending a non-stock spring. (I left the stock springs in.) The “smaller” cams below that should work just fine with a stock spring (as recommended) if they are in good shape.

Anyway – I’m not a cam expert but I’ll “go out on a limb” here. As Jay pointed out – an RV or towing cam should be a very nice improvement – and the cam you’re looking at appears to be VERY mild – but should give you good throttle response with better low-mid range torque – and if your stock springs are in good shape it should work just fine. (What RPM do you want to turn?) The drawback for you is that it will NOT have any sound to it. The other cam you were looking at (the Bracket II) *appears* to be close to a Comp 268H cam I ran years ago – with a 218 dur. @ .050. on a 110 lobe center with a .468 lift. That cam was a great on the street (stock 289 heads.) Had a very slight lope.

As I said earlier, I’m currently running a (dual profile ) Comp 262-XE in my ’67 289. I’m satisfied with it’s overall performance. Even through a C4 and a 3.00 gear, it’s got good, stock-like low-end (no bogging), with very nice mid-range torque. I don’t rev it that high, but it’s advertised operating range is like 1800-5600, and it’s also got that “cam-chop” you’re talking about (through the automagic tranny…)

Remember that most of these guys here are pretty hard core racers – and that’s why you’re catching all the flak about picking a cam for sound. That said… I’d be lying if I said “sound” wasn’t at least *part* of my decision-making process in picking a *street machine* cam. (I have no plans to race my ’67 at any track, so winning by a head-light bucket is not important to me.) But let me tell you. Nothing… and I mean nothing sounds sweeter than an American V8 rolling through the gas-station with that beautiful choppy idle. JMHO.... Good luck!
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Old 03-15-2006, 11:18 AM   #29
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Man where have you been all this thread!!! lol thankyou for the post and you know exactly what i want......damn r u me? lol I do want a cam that i can run with my stock heads,springs,valves,pushrods, etc. The springs are in good shape because the heads have been redone not too long before it was pulled out of the bronco. I want a somewhat choppy idle with decent torque gains. I dont plan on racing really but i would like to see a slight increase in my rpm range. I am running a t-5 so the rpm range would work best if around idle-4,500 or maybe 1,000-5,000.. but the smaller cams are usually around idle-4,500. anyways, i think i may get the cam that you said you had in the 289. I trust that everything stock will work with this cam , correct?
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Comp 268H cam I ran years ago – with a 218 dur. @ .050. on a 110 lobe center with a .468 lift. That cam was a great on the street (stock 289 heads.)
this is the one that uses absolutely stock springs right?
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Old 03-15-2006, 11:26 AM   #30
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I give up on this thread
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Old 03-15-2006, 11:34 AM   #31
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you gave up on 03-13-2006, 11:14 AM, anyways you said
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The stock cam is great....add 1.72 RR for a little bump in power. If you don't want to swap heads or springs or valves.......you are just wasting time. Call Crane/Comp/Lunati....whoever, they will suggest a cam for you...I am sure there is SOMETHING that will work. But for the 5.0HO, the heads are the MAJOR fallback and the cam you already have is as good as it gets.
and my motor is a non-roller 1976 302. I would just like to add a better cam without going to big to where i need new valvetrain. simple enough
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Old 03-15-2006, 11:40 AM   #32
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Dedge,

First - I certainly don't disagree with any of points from previous posters. These guys know their stuff. I just think they are talking about getting the "perfect combo" together. Sure we all want that - but for many it's just not practical...

Anyway - about the springs/cam/heads years ago with the Comp 268H. I had my 289 heads done and had some TRW stock replacement springs installed when I did this. Only you can know what springs you have on the heads - and what they are rated for. Any cam you pick, you need to make sure the springs will support it. If you don't know what springs you have - and the cam recommends certain open/closed pressures - you need to run that spring in order to eliminate the chances of "float" - period.

Don't just go run out and buy the 268H - look at some of the newer grinds with the split profiles. Don't rule out the Lunati grinds you were looking at.




Just
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Old 03-15-2006, 11:47 AM   #33
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i know what your saying. I am not ruling out anything at this point. I do not know my spring pressures at all. i just know that they are stock rebuild replacements 1976 302 springs. can i just look at a hayes amnual and get the specs? or is the rebuilt heads gonna have the same spring pressures? i guess no one really knows so i may just get em tested or whatever....it can be done right?
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