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Old 08-26-2005, 05:40 PM   #1
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Cool Street Boss 351 Clevor

Hi! I'm researching the power plant that I want to put in my mustang restoration project. I was considering using a 351 Windsor Block with 4V Aussie Cleveland Heads and the appropriately matching intake. Then I came across this forum and someone mentioned that there would be a ton of headaches involved if I decided to to go this route. They really didn't elaborate what these headaches would be. They did suggest Canfield or Yates heads but didn't talk at all about corresponding intakes. I'm not really interested in a high RPM capability Track Engine. So, here's the question: What is probably the best way to build up a Windsor Block with Cleveland style heads to create a 4V Street Boss 351? The wealth of knowledge that is available on this site really amazes me - you guys and gals are great!
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Old 08-26-2005, 05:44 PM   #2
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Why not just a 351W with a good set of aluminum heads as opposed to Clevland heads?
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Old 08-26-2005, 06:12 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tireburner163
Why not just a 351W with a good set of aluminum heads as opposed to Clevland heads?

ditto...

if "track duty" isn't part of the program...then windsor heads will more than fill the bill...

otherwise...CHI heads and a matching intake and your about set...

(search for cylinder head innovations out of australia...kickass cleveland style head...)
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Old 08-26-2005, 06:42 PM   #4
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Thanks guys. I've researched Clevland engines and I'm hearing of oiling and coolant problems. But the Cleveland heads are basically legendary. Windsor reports are not so flattering. That was why I interested in the possibility of making a Street Boss - 351 C / W. The 4V Aussie heads were supposedly perfect for this purpose but then I discovered this forum and someone warned of great headaches ahead. 351 Freak doesn't mention any apparent problems. So...what are the real risks? Thanks again!
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Old 08-26-2005, 10:01 PM   #5
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I built a clevor with the 2bbl heads, the engine worked fine in a street rod. No real problems at all, made decent power, good torque, pleasant to drive. The only advantage to the 4bbl heads wont be apparent until you get over about 7000 rpm.
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Old 08-26-2005, 10:18 PM   #6
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there is nothing wrong with a Cleveland headded 351 Windsor block combo in a late body...
people that say that there are problems just did not look into all possibilitys of how to put together a good combo before they started, or went CHEAPO in the set-up...

and there is nothing wrong or "BAD" about a Cleveland engine either......
they were installed in cars -trucks-stationwagons- rancheros for more than ten Years, as a normal production deal...

ANY engine that is installed in some type of conversion will need an upgraded radiator and cooling system...the CRAP that the stock street stuff has from the factory is even very marginal with even a totally stock engine....

intakes are available, you just have to find one...
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Old 08-26-2005, 10:46 PM   #7
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....I sense another Cleveland head vs. contemporary Windsor head debate coming on....
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Old 08-26-2005, 10:54 PM   #8
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oooooooooooooooooooeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwww wwwwwwwww





all that is new is not always better,

all that is old is not better either.










but the old crap certainally runs pretty damn fast...!!!!



I am yet to see a cleveland head get out ran at the track.
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Old 08-27-2005, 02:11 AM   #9
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Whichever C head you want to run, the closed chamber ones
are far better as they are much more resistant to detonation.

The Aussie 2bbl iron ones are good, of course the 4bbl ones make
big power but are really too big for decent street rpm range torque
and throttle response.

Edelbrock has just come out with alum "3v" C heads that have port
sizes inbetween the 2bbl and 4bbl heads and a modern heart shaped comb chamber for good detonation resistance, and a matching
Perf RPM Air Gap intake. Those heads come made to bolt
on both C and W blocks. To fit the C intake on a 351 W block,
check out www.pricemotorsport.com for adapter plates.
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Old 08-27-2005, 10:52 AM   #10
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Hello again, gentlmen. I certainly am not a purist by any stretch of the imagination - I guess that's why I'm kinda interested in creating a Steet Boss - 351 C / W (Cleveland heads on a Windsor Block) I guess the thing that I'm hung up on is the fact that no FoMoCo Pony Car was labeled a 'Boss' with a Windsor power plant under the hood. True - the Boss 302 was of windsor heritage - but the cleveland heads was what made it a Boss. When I create my resto muscle car I believe I want to somehow keep that cleveland heritage alive.

The problem I'm finding in my research is that in forums such as this one, people who claim to have 351 C 4v or 2V heads in their possession are all claiming different part numbers. After awhile it almost becomes dizzying to 'know for sure' what they have for sale. Building a 351 C / W (in my mind at least) results in an engine that becomes a known entity.

My thanks to Gene116 on the 2V info. It my understanding that the Aussie 4V heads have smaller Intake and Exhaust Ports than a US 4V Cleveland which is supposed to make them more responsive in the 5500 RPM range. Heard anything about that?

I believe that Kato Engineering is correct concerning a Clevor - research is probably the key to building a quality Street Boss 351 C / W and to do that you can't go out and buy "Cheapo" parts. Good advice no matter what you're trying to do.

BTW Michael - I'm not trying to start a debate - I'm just gathering information - so that I can decide what I want to build when it's time to put the power plant in my resto project. I just want it to be a good one - a strong one - and reasonably powerful - you know - with the kind of growl that immediately increases testosterone levels when it revs up.

I thank each and every one of you for even taking the time to try and answer a old pony car enthusists questions. There's so much to know...
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Old 08-27-2005, 01:39 PM   #11
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As a fellow 'old' enthusiast (I'll leave the pony cars to you guys though) - I can appreciate what you're trying to do. Never thought your were trying to start the debate -- as a recent veteran of the forum, I've just seen a few debates - often quite entertaining - as the Windsor and Cleveland camps get cranked up.

My perspective is this -- if you're trying to actually restore something - an old Boss for example - I can understand wanting be period specific and even numbers/casting dates matching with parts. However if what you want is - your words here - "I just want it to be a good one - a strong one - and reasonably powerful - you know - with the kind of growl that immediately increases testosterone levels when it revs up" well, you don't need any Cleveland parts for that unless you just want them. All of that is easily obtainable for (probably) less money, less weight and possibly greater drivability. Put together a good roller 351 at about 9.5 or 10:1 CR, with a set of AFR185's or 205's cammed and inducted for solid torque in the low/midrange, but able to spin up into the 5500-6000 range if you like. It'll make for a VERY entertaining package, and you won't have to spin it up above 5 grand to access the benefits of those other parts.

But my perspective ain't what's important here. You gotta do what you want to do. Good luck with it.
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Old 08-27-2005, 01:56 PM   #12
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Here's a perspective from a old performance buff that loves clevelands. in reality, killing the true performance of a canted head design by going with the low-po 2V style head is going to force so much extra expenditure into the proiject that you would be far better served going with a conventiona windsor compatible head. even though its an austrailian head with the smaller combustion chamber, the added cost by going with a port design that gives up a lot to more modern set-ups. i have never heard of an australian 4V head. how does it differ from the 4V open or closed chamber domestic head?

If on the other hand, you were going the 4v route, be aware of the added costs, but go for it. you got to the right intake manifolds, and you got be ready to run headers around 2" primaries to really allow the intake side, cylinder fill, cylinder pressure, to work their best. i recently worked on two 4v set-ups, that ran low-low 10's quite handily. one high rpm 351 (9.2 deck) and one very conservative 408 (9.5 deck).

buddy Rawls

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Old 08-27-2005, 02:31 PM   #13
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Well, here we go again - even more info to try and sort out. Thanks for the input Mr. Rawls. Buddy is saying he's never heard of Australian 4V heads - but some people refer to Australian / Aluminum "3V heads" because the intake and exhaust ports are smaller than the US Cleveland 4V's but bigger than the US Cleveland 2V's. Do the Australian heads only come in a 2V version? I just found online a company in Arkansas called Bush Performance Engines who make C / W power plants with the Aussie heads. I can't find a web site for this company. Can anyone out there pass on some info about these guys? Do they build up 4V Street Boss Engines with the smaller intake ports? What's the story with them. Thanks.
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Old 08-27-2005, 02:45 PM   #14
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Don't forget the 3.5V heads and the square-root-of-3V heads....
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Old 08-27-2005, 02:48 PM   #15
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Bush Performance! Don't touch them!
http://www.mustanggt.org/ubb/ultimat...=002931#000000
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Old 08-27-2005, 03:32 PM   #16
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The Aussie heads are a hybrid of the Amerivan 2V and 4V heads. Basically, they combine the more streetable ports and valves of the 2V head, with the smaller, closed chamber of the '70 4V head.

If you're going to all the trouble, you might as well just build a Cleveland, you get a stronger block, you will be able to find headers to drop it in anything, and by the time you're done it will make more power cheaper than a Clevor. Don't worry about oil problems either, the restricter kit is cheap and easy to install, and the thing will take 9000 RPM all day long with no issues.
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Old 08-27-2005, 06:18 PM   #17
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the austrailian 2v head is a regular 2v head with a small chamber, similar to A 70 351c 4v. The benefit in the smaller chamber head is that it helps out over the regular open chamber head which comes in around 76cc, if I remember correctly.

That is correct on the oiling issue. the oiling problems were associated with high rpm race situations, that were first seen in roundy round and 70's pro-stock.

the place in arkansas that has intakes for the 2V conversions is most likely going to be the castings that were originally produced by B&A performance.
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Old 08-27-2005, 06:48 PM   #18
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Just build a 351C, and use the 2V Aussie heads. My first motor build was a 351C with 2V heads(Domestic). I learned alot messing with it, and never had a oiling, or overheating problem. I ran low 12's, high 11's NA, and with a 200hp shot of nitrous it would run high 10's. It had a sluggish C6(my worst mistake). With a C4, that motor would have run mid 11's NA, and mid 10's.. So my advice is go manual, or a nice C4......
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Old 08-27-2005, 07:32 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddy rawls
the castings that were originally produced by B&A performance.
Yes they are, mine is stamped B+A Performance on the right side



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Old 08-27-2005, 07:57 PM   #20
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I beginning to think that collectively all of you guys know just about everything there is to know about 351 Cleveland Engines. If you are still following this thread and want to jump in - I am very appreciative of any knowledge that someone has to offer.

Some Questions:

5SpeedGT - What exactly is the restricter kit that is 'cost effective' and 'easy to install. What does it do to elliminate or ease the notorious oiling problems of a 351 C engine?

Buddy Rawls - Based on your answer I am concluding that there are no 4V Australian Cleveland Heads - is that correct? Too bad if that is indeed the case. Smaller ports on a 4V head might have made a good combination.

BadBoss351 I'm beginning to understand that you - 5SpeedGT - and Buddy Rawls have all given me wise council - meaning I should probably just put a 351 C in my project Mustang. I will have to chew on the data and mull over all the ideas and suggestions you passed on to me. Thanks.

Darren5.0L - Why do you suggest not dealing with Bush Performance? Have you had personal dealing with the company that were less than satisfactory to you?

And last - but certainly not least - Mr. Michael Yount I can see where your lively and somewhat humorous responses to questions on this forum can lead to further discussions that could be of a heated nature. <grins> But I suspect those kinds of confrontations would be a delight and pleasurable to you at the same time. <grins again> I do thank you for your inputs, my friend - but forgive me if I do not pursue any further information on Cleveland 3.5 heads or the square root of 3V heads. But if you know something about 4V Aussie Cleveland heads.......
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Old 08-28-2005, 02:23 AM   #21
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me again...

1st...I'v never owned any cleveland stuff...but have liked what i see and read about "clevor" engines...

2nd...I cannot think of any situation that can be described as "may be used on the street" as having a distinct advantage in the cleveland camp...

The bottom line is that the windsor stuff has had so much more time to mature that the performance level is on par with anything you can hope to attain with any cleveland head...without ANY installation or parts finding headaches...

The only exception is for an "all-out" race setup that can benefit from the greater airflow "potential" that the cleveland heads possess...noticed that I said potential...cuz you can get some really good windsor heads today...like the AFR's..that will make avery bit as much power as a good set of untouched clevelands...

The 3v heads that I spoke of earlier seem to be the hot ticket nowadays...but will carry a premium...

if money is no object and you are simply trying to "be different"..then go clevor and never look back...but it's not necessarily a guarantee that you will get more performance than just sticking to "windsor" only...

I like different...and i like clevor...

how thick is your wallet...and how bad do you want to be different...2 simple but important questions that YOU need to answer...

(nothing like a cleveland headed motor spinning to 8,000 + rpm...huh KATO...)

-Freak
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Old 08-28-2005, 02:27 AM   #22
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FREAKY,


.......it is even better when you have the balls to pull the handle at 9200.....


with no rev limiter....



........
CLEVOR engines are GREAT.

You just need to have to find the proper intake manifold to fit the parts that you have...

I have machined / built at least 18 of them........plus 5 legit race only units.
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Old 08-28-2005, 04:04 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss_Pony_Car

Darren5.0L - Why do you suggest not dealing with Bush Performance? Have you had personal dealing with the company that were less than satisfactory to you?
Just click the link I provided and you will see.
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Old 08-30-2005, 10:37 AM   #24
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Hey Guys. Had a long weekend - went this weekend to look at a 69 resto pony - but someone bought her ahead of me. Nonetheless - the search is still on. If you happen to still following the thread -

I

Darren5.0L - I read your link about Bush Performance - thanks for that great insight. It was kinda scary about what you went through with those guys. I haven't quite yet given up on the possibility of building a Street Boss 351 C / W. Do you know of any other sources for Clevor parts?

Kato Engineering - You mentioned that you've built up 18 Clevors. Do you have any difficulties obtaining the parts you want to do a build up? Where do you get the parts?

Many thanks to anyone who can offer information up on Clevor Stuff.
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Old 08-30-2005, 11:55 AM   #25
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I would suggest Ebay, sometimes you can find stuff for them there. (ie my speed-pro .060 over Clevor Pistons $150 USD New in Box) I'm told the pushrods can me had from almost any good manufactuer, but I can't remember the length. The heads you purchase are really up to you and should be rather easily found.

The intake is the most rare/difficult part to find, I got mine new from Bush. Don't get me wrong it's a great piece, and I do not know of anyone else producing one, but there is my ordeal from last year...

Further, I'm not even sure if they are even in business anywhere, even if you wamted to risk purchasing from them...
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Old 08-30-2005, 01:01 PM   #26
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Edelbrock is releasing a aluminum Cleveland Head

http://www.fordmuscle.com/SpeedShop/2005/08/index.php
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Old 08-30-2005, 01:57 PM   #27
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all of the heads spoken of here have the ability to bolt on to either the W or C block...
even a 302 if you like to.

because , except for the exclusive water hole in the cleveland block...all the rest is the same.
just pick the headgasket...all the head bolts to the block are the SAME.....

the only problem in putting a certain head on any one of the blocks is finding the intake manifold.

at one time or another, ...up to a few years ago, EVERY possibility of port shape and deck height, and bolt pattern was built at one time.........just finding an exact and un molested original is the problem today.......

the earlier assemblies that I did 15-20 years ago, used the customer suppled B-A (now Bush) manifold...
and then there were the legit winston cup manifolds for the aluminum A-3 style heads...
these were all an aluminum casting...

just about all of the later stuff that I have built is legit race stuff, that uses individual port -mechanical injection fed nozzles....
so, the manifolds are a left and a right type of deal with a seperate air-gap floor / bottom valley pan FLAT PLATE.
this accomodates ANY deck height or valley width weather it is a 9.200 or a 9.500" deck or even something custom deck special...

We have also cut off the bottoms of the ports off of a manifold that fits the valley / port / bolt layout pattern, and welded all of that to the bottom of a CURRENTLY available manifold to bolt on a carb or EFI (type) system...good welding / alignment and some sand blasting, and you cant tell it was two or five pieces to begin with...)

.......and then there are the totally fabricated units that I have made out of about 45 pieces of flat stock and tubing sections...( TFI--TBI out the front)

just choose and then find the heads that you want.....check them out to be certain that they will seal up and not drop out the seats and then find or have made the manifold....

you will enjoy the cleveland style head,...even if you do not push it HARD or race it, ...

.....the "novelty of it".... really draws a crowd....
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Old 08-30-2005, 02:04 PM   #28
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except for the original cleveland block with a cleveland iron head,...the rest of these combos will need a specific dome and skirt length to make everything fit inside the head with proper valve locations....it is a custom piston...

but some of the california piston makers have all these domes and shapes in a computer program, ...so they can help you...

if you are looking for any much more than a little compression added (a BIG dome) then you better make a mock up sample....or have a knowlegable person do it for you....
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