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Old 03-18-2005, 09:40 AM   #1
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"Blueprinted" oil pumps: What's the advantage, if any?

I've searched here, turbomustangs.com and Hardcore50, but haven't found my answer so I figured I'll ask.

I was searching around on oil pumps, SV vs. HV and the conclusion I've come to is that there's really no need to run a HV unless you're running an external filter or cooler, or, you have excessive bearing clearances. One thing I noticed was people mentioning running a blueprinted oil pump. What exactly is the process of blueprinting an oil pump, and what kind of advantage does that give?

Discuss.

http://www.claysmithcams.com/
http://www.precisionoilpumps.com/pumps.htm

Thanks,
Dave
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Old 03-18-2005, 10:47 AM   #2
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Copied this from Speedomotive website, Google search blueprinting oil pumps.

STONE TUMBLED TO DEBUR
RADIUS CORNERS
EMERY CLOTH RELIEF VALVE
ALUM. OXIDE COATING
TECH. LINE MOLY COATED
PRESSURE SHIM KIT INCL'D
CLEARANCED TO .002"
SAFETY WIRE BOTTOM PLATE

I've got a book on the basics somewhere. I remember a height mic that sits across the pump housing machined flats (where the flat cover bolts on) and measures the depth to the rotortops as one check. Of course radiusing the holes and corners with a dremel could be done at home. I need to shim my pump spring but taking the pan off is a btch and it isn't too bad.

I don't have a BP pump but figure it is worth the insurance.
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Old 03-18-2005, 10:54 AM   #3
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I've found out the best thing to do on a 351W is to us an HV oil pump and add a couple of 5/16 washers under the pressure relief spring. My 408 holds around 40psi idling and goes up to 75psi at wide open throttle when the engine is at 200 degrees.
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Old 03-18-2005, 01:35 PM   #4
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Dave, it's an easy answer. Just like blueprinting your engine, when blueprinting the oil pump, you're verifying that every clearance is at an optimum setting. You're not leaving anything to chance or machining errors.

You wouldn't assemble an engine "hoping" that every clearance is spot on, makes sense to verify the oil pump is spot on also.

Also, if your thinking of putting a turbo on that 351, you probably want to go with a HV oil pump and set your clearances on the larger size. The cooling effect of the extra oil flow will make your bearings very happy.

I used a Speed Pro HV oil pump in my 383 and I see about 35psi at idle and 75 at wide open with the engine at operating temp. This is using Mobil 1 10w-30w.
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Old 03-18-2005, 01:45 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doktor
Dave, it's an easy answer. Just like blueprinting your engine, when blueprinting the oil pump, you're verifying that every clearance is at an optimum setting. You're not leaving anything to chance or machining errors.

You wouldn't assemble an engine "hoping" that every clearance is spot on, makes sense to verify the oil pump is spot on also.

Also, if your thinking of putting a turbo on that 351, you probably want to go with a HV oil pump and set your clearances on the larger size. The cooling effect of the extra oil flow will make your bearings very happy.

I used a Speed Pro HV oil pump in my 383 and I see about 35psi at idle and 75 at wide open with the engine at operating temp. This is using Mobil 1 10w-30w.
THINKING? THINKING?

I'm ready to go with this thing!!! Just need an engine to put it on!



(Cue Pat Benetar - "The Warrior" music )




Yeah I will be building this engine myself, I'm not going to rely on machine shops to take their time or make mistakes anymore, when I can do the same myself for free, and then I'll have nobody to blame but myself. I'm trying to do this as cheaply as possible. I want to just get one of these FMS 351W swap pan kits for $100, it's only a 5 qt pan. In order to run a HV pump it is *reccomended* to run a larger capacity pan, but now I'm talking $250+ for one of those.

These blueprinted oil pumps are like $120 though, pretty pricy.

Do you have your clearances set loose on your 383?

Thanks for the info!
-Dave
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That is why it's ok to have scrambled eggs for breakfast but you can't push some bimbo from a one night stand down the stairs.
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Old 03-18-2005, 02:14 PM   #6
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Melling makes a "race" pump that is essentially a standard Melling pump, except the shaft goes through the bottom cover, so it is supported on both sides.

They have high volume and standard volume for 302's and 351's.

The 302 pump costs about $40.00 with a drive shaft, so it's not expensive.

If you are going to blueprint a pump, you should start with the best.

I recomend a standard volume pump. A high volume pump just puts more load on the drive shaft which is the part that breaks.
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Old 03-18-2005, 02:32 PM   #7
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Yes, I set the clearances a "little" loose. Basically, at the high end of spec. If it called for a range of .001-.003 then I set them at .003.

I just used the Speed Pro HV pump from Slummit. It was about $60 or so if I remember right. When I raced a BB Camaro, I put a blueprinted pump in it and I never had a problem. The oil pressure was spot on and in 5 years of racing, I never had any bearing problems.

I didn't put a blueprinted pump in this engine but I took it apart, inspected it, checked all the endplay, etc. and the oil pressure is right where I want it.

I also recommend using an ARP oil pump shaft but be damn sure you verify the endplay on that too. Mine was WAY to tight with my MSD dist. I shortened the dist shaft to get enough endplay and not tear the pump up.
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Old 03-18-2005, 03:00 PM   #8
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If your doing a 351, and your going to do more with it than let a truck grunt around.... race clearances on the rods and mains.... coupled with a high volume pump and a 7 quart+ pan is the ticket to keeping things happy.

If your going to do a stroker, get teh crank with 2.100 chevy rod bearings. And get the small journal rods, before ordering both, either deal with Brian, aka Eagle, or ensure your getting either chevy journal diamater and ford width... for rod and crank, or chevy diamater and chevy width on rod and crank...
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Old 03-18-2005, 03:31 PM   #9
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Thanks for all the help so far guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the fool
Melling makes a "race" pump that is essentially a standard Melling pump, except the shaft goes through the bottom cover, so it is supported on both sides.

They have high volume and standard volume for 302's and 351's.

The 302 pump costs about $40.00 with a drive shaft, so it's not expensive.

If you are going to blueprint a pump, you should start with the best.

I recomend a standard volume pump. A high volume pump just puts more load on the drive shaft which is the part that breaks.
I'm assuming the "race pump" is part # MEL-10833 for $47.88. The 'regular' high volume pump would be part # MEL-M83HV for $45.95. No price difference between the two. So get the Performance HV one I assume...I see you're saying SV though. After a good bit of searching it seems as though the HV, as much as it's totally going against my budget, is the way to go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doktor
I also recommend using an ARP oil pump shaft but be damn sure you verify the endplay on that too. Mine was WAY to tight with my MSD dist. I shortened the dist shaft to get enough endplay and not tear the pump up.
That's a whole 'nother issue. I've got an Electromotive TEC-3 system here that I'm using, crank-trigger setup w/ coil packs, so I will not be using a distributor at all. I have to find something else to put in there that will still perform the same functions. That was going to be a whole different search, but if you guys know, feel free to fill me in on that one...
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim
kim If your doing a 351, and your going to do more with it than let a truck grunt around.... race clearances on the rods and mains.... coupled with a high volume pump and a 7 quart+ pan is the ticket to keeping things happy.

If your going to do a stroker, get teh crank with 2.100 chevy rod bearings. And get the small journal rods, before ordering both, either deal with Brian, aka Eagle, or ensure your getting either chevy journal diamater and ford width... for rod and crank, or chevy diamater and chevy width on rod and crank...
Yeah I'm using that '69 351W block. Things went from "budget" to "blown up" in no time at all, it all started with the damn rod bolts I wanted to replace, and blew out exponentially from there.
Original plans were to run my block, the '69 crank, the '69 rods, and some cheap forged dish pistons, a FMS pan swap kit, and get it rolling. Seems though i would cost me ~$200+ just to use these rods with good bolts, so I opted to go with some H-Beams instead (Not completely decided, the H vs I debate seems pretty good). Pistons, can't find a TRW I like, so will be a little more costly in that dept. as well. Oilpan wise, well, so much for a cheap FMS pan kit for $100. I did some research on this pan, seems people are having problems with the HV pumps hitting the pans, plus it's not the BEST idea to have a high-vol pump w/ a regular vol pan (Don't get me wrong plenty of people do it). I also see it advantageous in a turbo'd app because I will have more oil to cycle around, my thinking is that it will keep the oil a little cooler since there's more to cycle? I could be off though, it might be a negligible difference.

No stroker here, no reason to really. Just going to stick with that '69 crank, clean it up, some H-Beams, and probably the BRC coated dish pistons out of the classifieds, along with the ported 351W D0OE heads and Spyder intake that I've got. Good call on Brian @ AD, I've been dealing with him on this too, and got a lot of LT1 stuff from him. I don't think these 5.956" rods come with Chevy journals from anyone, and if they did, I'd have an awful hard time finding a piston with a .927" pin with the compression height that I need, with that big dish. Definitely good advice!

Thanks again for your input so far,
Dave
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Old 03-18-2005, 03:37 PM   #10
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I'm using a Melling HV pump in my 408. Clearances are way loose on the motor, and I see about 25psi @ idle (1000-1100rpm) and 50-60psi @ WOT

I'm running 25w50. If I did it again, I'd get a blueprinted pump.
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Old 03-18-2005, 03:49 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blk88GT
I'm using a Melling HV pump in my 408. Clearances are way loose on the motor, and I see about 25psi @ idle (1000-1100rpm) and 50-60psi @ WOT

I'm running 25w50. If I did it again, I'd get a blueprinted pump.
Thanks for the results Ian. For what reasons do you say you'd get it blueprinted next time around? BTW, where have you seen them, and how much for? (If you've looked around at all)

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Old 03-18-2005, 05:18 PM   #12
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I'm building a 347, so I didn't think about the bearing problems that the 351's have.

The bearing diameters are too big. The Clevelands have 2.75" mains and seem to do fine. A lot of Nascar engines use 2.249" mains, but they also have billet cranks, so that makes up for the smaller diameter. Small chevy's use 2.5" I think. Then there is the 351 rod journal, it's far too large.

If you are going to try to make the engine rev, you are going to have to run large clearances to help the bearing deal with it's speed. That make the high volume pump worthwhile.

I have 2.249" mains and 2.100" rod journals, so I don't have any of those issues and I'm will be using the standard volume melling race pump. That should be a pretty safe for going in a straight line, but I'm not sure how it will do in a corner, so I will add an accusump.

There's one more thing that a good blueprint job should include:

It should be run on an oil pump test rig to set the relief valve pressure and make sure everything is working right.
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Old 03-19-2005, 11:18 AM   #13
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Ahh, yessir, this is on a 351W. You're right, I've looked around a ton about bearing clearances, and what I'm finding is a reccomended min. of .0030" on these mains, esp. for a performance build. "Next time" will be in a Dart block with 2.75" mains, but I don't got the kind of Benjamins for that build right now.

I still haven't really gotten my answer as to what a "blueprinted" oil pump is.
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Old 03-19-2005, 03:50 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blk88GT
I'm using a Melling HV pump in my 408. Clearances are way loose on the motor, and I see about 25psi @ idle (1000-1100rpm) and 50-60psi @ WOT

I'm running 25w50. If I did it again, I'd get a blueprinted pump.

Is it just me, or does that psi seem low at idle, especially for a HV pump?
My stock, never opened, long block with 171K still holds 45 psi at idle and 55-60 at while driving. Or so says my autometer mechanical gauge,..
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Old 03-19-2005, 05:50 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave88LX
Ahh, yessir, this is on a 351W. You're right, I've looked around a ton about bearing clearances, and what I'm finding is a reccomended min. of .0030" on these mains, esp. for a performance build. "Next time" will be in a Dart block with 2.75" mains, but I don't got the kind of Benjamins for that build right now.

I still haven't really gotten my answer as to what a "blueprinted" oil pump is.
It is the same as a blue printed engine. It is measured, and held to an exact tolerance.

On standard production pumps, geritor (gear) to sidewall clearance can vary from .020 to .060" depending on hone/mill tool age and or lubricant volume and bubba's start shut down timming.

The end cap seal to the gear can have equal variance. One pump might move 50gph and hold 45 psi at idle on an engine, and the next pump with the same part number might move 40gph and hold 30 psi on the same engine.

With a blueprinted pump, the tolerances are exact, its .0xx side clearance, and .0xx end shaft clearance, and you should be able to take one pump off, and put another on an engine, and it should pump exactly the same oil volume and pressure within about 1lb.

Blueprinting itself really only means something is measured. When a stock engine is blueprinted, everything is measured and built to within a ".xxx" of stock tolerance. When its balanced, then everything is also usually "matched" for weight, dimension, etc....
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Old 03-19-2005, 06:19 PM   #16
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Thanks for the explanation kim. I guess I don't understand how if a pumps tolerances are on the loose side, how they're tightened up closer. I could see taking some off the pump housing on the bottom to tighten up the clearance between the end cap and the gears, but not how to get the gears closer to the sidewalls.

In your opinion and experience, does a blueprinted pump make a big difference, and worth the cost?
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Old 03-19-2005, 08:37 PM   #17
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Versus hi volume, ??? I know almost everything is a melling pump or a derivative of one. If I can get you a prototype thats better than the average melling and better than anything blueprinted offurd so far would you be interested?
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Old 03-19-2005, 11:42 PM   #18
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Standard volume here. Clearances are average. Turn it 7200+ makes about 40 psi hot idle and 65 psi thru the traps with 10w-30.
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Old 03-20-2005, 12:51 AM   #19
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kim, I'd definitely be interested to hear about it...let me know what's up, here or via PM if you don't want to post it for whatever reason (being a prototype or whatever).
Thanks!

Dave
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Old 03-20-2005, 05:32 AM   #20
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yeah me too Kim


Dave, these places are buying mellings in bulk and swapping parts between them in order to acheive the desired tolerances...rarely do they start with one pump and machine/adjust things to fit.

You can do this stuff at home with a shim kit, dremel, tools (feeler gauges, caliper, mic, and straight edge), and a little time. Most of them are applying techline dfl and similar coatings...use loctite instead of safety wire, etc
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Old 03-20-2005, 06:34 AM   #21
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waiting on an e-mail back from the manufacture. Ill let both of you know information in a PM as soon as I get a yes or no. I don't know if they are ready to distribute yet. Stand by.... could be Monday before ya get any info.

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Old 03-20-2005, 06:51 AM   #22
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Mat:
OK that makes a lot more sense then. I have neither a caliper nor mic nor straightedge, but I will be purchasing them soon, as well as some other engine building tools. I'm not too fond on assembling an engine, I would rather "build" it.

kim: Thanks for the info, I'll be looking for your PM

-Dave
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