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Old 08-17-2004, 09:57 AM   #1
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Possible to flood an efi car?

Im still having hot restart problems the starter is cranking fine but it just doesnt wanna fire. I tried a different dist w/ tfi and it didnt change much then bought a nw coil, plugs and wires, on cold starts it will fire immedaitely. It smells like the car is being loaded up with way too much fuel because the only way it will restart is by holding the gas down then turning the key and if it eventually fires it will spit n sputter for a sec til all cylinders kick in then a big cloud of white smoke comes out. On cold starts theres no smoke or anything. I also swapped in different iac and ect sensors nothing changed, you can hear the fuel pump kick on all the time. So whats left to try, would cleaning my mam or new 02's affect a hot start conditon at all?
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Old 08-17-2004, 10:05 AM   #2
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someone suggested a bad computer but if it was bad wouldnt it not work when cold or not run when it got hot not just a hot start problem. Im stumped, latly it wil usually start but those few times it wont is killing me.
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Old 08-17-2004, 12:04 PM   #3
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Man this problem is so common but nobody has an answer for it. I went through the same thing. I tried everything under the sun and nothing seemed to work. So I just converted to carbed. A buddy of mine just went through the same thing and he's just now given up and started converting to carbed
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Old 08-17-2004, 12:25 PM   #4
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Why not try pulling the diagnostic codes and see if the computer has an error code that will steer you in the right direction?
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Old 08-17-2004, 12:35 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 03BlackWidow
Im still having hot restart problems the starter is cranking fine but it just doesnt wanna fire. I tried a different dist w/ tfi and it didnt change much then bought a nw coil, plugs and wires, on cold starts it will fire immedaitely. It smells like the car is being loaded up with way too much fuel because the only way it will restart is by holding the gas down then turning the key and if it eventually fires it will spit n sputter for a sec til all cylinders kick in then a big cloud of white smoke comes out. On cold starts theres no smoke or anything. I also swapped in different iac and ect sensors nothing changed, you can hear the fuel pump kick on all the time. So whats left to try, would cleaning my mam or new 02's affect a hot start conditon at all?
Sounds like my car...but I don't get no smoke...I think mine is when my header gets the starter hot...because it takes a couple more engine turnovers to get it fixed...
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Old 08-17-2004, 01:00 PM   #6
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I highly reccomend checking the salt & pepper 10 pin connections behind the intake, and looking for any possible shorts. I had a problem sorta like this not too long ago and this was the culprit. My car had the usual idle problems from the time I bought it, and then one day everything got really bad and lots of fuel, white smoke. I thought it blew a HD but it turned out to be a wiring short. After that was fixed, car idles perfect 100% of the time 24/7 cold or hot. It's so nice having a perfect idle! You must check that.
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Old 08-17-2004, 01:03 PM   #7
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Yes, it's possible to flood an EFI car, hence the built-in "clear flood mode" triggered by holding the throttle to the floor for extended cranking. But if that's happening there's an underlying issue. But for anyone to even guess we're going to need to know more about your MAF, your injectors, your EEC, etc.
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Old 08-17-2004, 01:06 PM   #8
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When it gets hot and won't start what do the plugs look like?
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Old 08-17-2004, 04:53 PM   #9
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Quote:
But for anyone to even guess we're going to need to know more about your MAF, your injectors, your EEC, etc.
Exactly.
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Old 08-17-2004, 05:06 PM   #10
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stock maf, however it sat on a shelf for probably a year before it went in my car. Injectors are stock, fpr is stock, A3m computer.
I put a heat shield over the starter, it cranks the motor just fine. Most of time it fires but once in awhile it wont and i dont know why. I have no idle issues and no drivability besides it runs pretty rich.
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Old 08-17-2004, 05:12 PM   #11
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Are you sure it runs rich? Running rich is usually accompanied by surging idle, etc.

You mentioned a new ECT and IAC, how about a IAT?

If you maf sat for a year on a shelf, the first thing I would do would be to clean it for sure.
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Old 08-17-2004, 05:16 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greygoose
Man this problem is so common but nobody has an answer for it. I went through the same thing. I tried everything under the sun and nothing seemed to work. So I just converted to carbed. A buddy of mine just went through the same thing and he's just now given up and started converting to carbed
You updated while I was typing this but if you're running rich all the time then that needs fixed first. This is intended for others that are having similar problems.


This is an easy problem with a somewhat easy fix if you have a chip and you will need a chip to fix this. This also assumes that everything else is working correctly. If your Fuel pressure reg. is gushing fuel then you probably should fix that first.

Here's the problem. Almost everyone that has this problem has one thing in common, they've upgraded to larger injectors. Now, the EEC, when you first turn the key on, will "spritz" a little fuel from the injectors just like giving a carb'd car a little pump on the pedal before starting.

Now the problem is the "spritz" is calculated for 19# injectors, you throw a set of 24s, 30s or 42s and that sucker floods everytime when hot. When I put my 75# injectors in, forget starting it hot without pressing the gas pedal all the way to the floor.

Here's the fix assuming you have some kind of chip installed. There's a field (on the A9L in this example)

CRANK_FUEL_PULSEWIDTH_VS_ECT # Modified for 75# injectors reduced to 25%
( 65534, 0.00049973 ) ( 180, 0.00049973 ) ( 150, 0.00057507 )
( 70, 0.00142479 ) ( 40, 0.0105019 ) ( 20, 0.0141487 )
( 0, 0.0218887 ) ( -20, 0.0387611 ) ( -65536, 0.0387611 )


Here's stock

CRANK_FUEL_PULSEWIDTH_VS_ECT #
( 65534, 0.0019989 ) ( 180, 0.0019989 ) ( 150, 0.00230026 )
( 70, 0.00569916 ) ( 40, 0.0105019 ) ( 20, 0.0141487 )
( 0, 0.0218887 ) ( -20, 0.0387611 ) ( -65536, 0.0387611 )



The left value is ECT (Engine Coolant Temp) and the right is some value for a fuel pump shot. That 65534 in the first one means into the max. value for ECT. You can also see here how the number grows the colder the engine is.

Now in my case it was pretty easy because my 75# injectors are almost exactly 4X bigger than stock but it's really just basic math. I just mulitplied the values times .25 and then plugged that value in. Bingo, no more hard starts or flooding when hot. It starts just like stock even with the 75# injectors. You just figure out how much bigger your injectors are than stock and then multiply times that percentage. i.e 38# injectors you would multiply times .50. The really cold temps I left alone since cold my engine always fired right up.
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Old 08-17-2004, 05:21 PM   #13
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Well written, Doktor, however, you missed an important point:
Quote:
stock maf, however it sat on a shelf for probably a year before it went in my car. Injectors are stock, fpr is stock, A3m computer
As long as you post is, I bet he put that part in while you were typing your reply. I hate it when that happens.

Wow, 75# injectors - what other drivability changes have you made?
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Old 08-17-2004, 05:32 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 93Cobra#2771
Well written, Doktor, however, you missed an important point:

As long as you post is, I bet he put that part in while you were typing your reply. I hate it when that happens.

Wow, 75# injectors - what other drivability changes have you made?
Yup, he replied while I was typing but it was useful enough that others might get something from it.

I've made a tons of changes to the EEC to regain drivability and 75# injectors aren't for the timid. You'll need a low ohm injector driver, I got mine here. http://www.acceleronics.com It works great.

I had to re-map the MAF curve, tune any parameter that uses injector size as a calculation, etc. I spent 3 hours alone a couple Sundays ago getting the idle and low speed drivability part down. The good news it really runs nice and except for the lumpy solid roller cam, it idles just like a stocker. I also have a wide-band which helps a bunch. I also live out in the country with very little traffic where the speed limits are 70 MPH (gotta love Texas country roads) and it's a 9 mile stretch without a town/traffic light/stop sign or anything. It gives me some testing room without having to worry about speeding/traffic.

Wide open tuning is a breeze, start rich with very conservative timing, lean it out to a safe value on the wide-band and then start adding timing to a safe level. It's the light throttle stuff that takes forever and can be frustrating since so many tables can be involved.
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Old 08-17-2004, 07:09 PM   #15
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Nice job with the posts Doktor...
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Old 08-18-2004, 12:27 AM   #16
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my brother had the same problem with the hot starts, his was due to a bad computer. For whatever reason his computer wasn't shutting off the fuel pump relay so the pump was still giving fuel to the injectors which was causing it too flood the car on hot starts, the way he got around it til he switched computers was to either unplug the relay under the seat or unplug the fuel pump at the rear of the car until the car fired then plug it back in.
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Old 08-18-2004, 12:32 AM   #17
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I had the exact same issue with my 89. Messed around for awhile. Couldn't pull codes... It was a bad ECU. Replaced it and it was all good.

Before it would start when cold, but it was ultra rich and then wouldn't restart unless I pulled the fuel pump relay first and cranked it. It would actually run off fumes for a moment and then die. I could then plug in the relay again and it would start fine.

Bad ECU.
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Old 08-18-2004, 12:55 AM   #18
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Years ago my wife drove our efi VW Jetta into high water during a really bad deluge in Houston. I can testify that it's definitely possible to flood an efi car.
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Old 08-18-2004, 01:32 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Yount
Years ago my wife drove our efi VW Jetta into high water during a really bad deluge in Houston. I can testify that it's definitely possible to flood an efi car.
lol, didnt think of it that way.
It could very well be my computer if thats a somewhat common problem. After you say that i thought about it and when it wont restart is when i try to restart right after i turn it off, if i turn it off for more then a minute i hit the kill switch which would kill the computer come back 3minutes later hit the switch and it will fire. Also when the car 1st gets power i can hear the fuel pump kickon pretty loud and distinct but when i turn the key back and on again it is pretty quiet and low key like it was on just repowering. I never thought about it, tomorow ill get it hot come home turn it off but leave power to the car yank my fuel pump relay and see if it will fire. Is that a good way to check though, there still would be fuel in the lines just no pressure.
I hope this is it and i finally find it but at the same time it sucks buying another computer.

I really apprecaite all the replies with help and suggestions, i'll update on my progress tomorow. How should i clean my maf?
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Old 08-18-2004, 12:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Yount
Nice job with the posts Doktor...
Thanks, I've spent countless hours fiddling with the A9L so I know it pretty well.

My sister flooded her Firebird the same way, she drove into a lake posing as a road. I can still remember tennis balls floating in the car when I opened the door.
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Old 08-18-2004, 01:58 PM   #21
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Doktor has hit it on the nose.
EFI mods require a custom chip or a fuel management system to work correctly.

One thing I noticed in the original post......He didnt mention if he replaced the plugs.
New spark plugs really should be gapped and installed after repeated floodings.
I've replaced a LOT of spark plugs, and I find that plugs that have been flooded are sometimes not saveable, no matter how 'clean' you get them.
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Old 08-18-2004, 02:30 PM   #22
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Quote:
Years ago my wife drove our efi VW Jetta into high water during a really bad deluge in Houston. I can testify that it's definitely possible to flood an efi car.


Quote:
It's the light throttle stuff that takes forever and can be frustrating since so many tables can be involved.
An amen to that for sure!
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Old 08-18-2004, 03:29 PM   #23
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There are simple reasons for an EFI control to flood also.
As most know, the TFI has a start and a run lead from the ignition switch.
If the start lead has no power during cranking, the fuel is still injected into the cylinders. This goes to long and you know the result.
Defective regulator, pressure to high.
There is a reason to be very cautious about taking the plugs out of the engine and cranking with the ignition still active.
Can you say fire all over the engine bay? Seen it happen.
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Old 08-18-2004, 03:42 PM   #24
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