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Old 01-07-2004, 09:57 PM   #1
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Is it even possible to install a cam 180 degrees off???

I was reading an old post while searching and came across a post where a guy said not to install the cam 180 degrees off, something about not installing it on wrong stroke. I laughed it off, but then figured maybe I am missing something.

Seems to me that as long as the crank and the cam are lined up correctly, it's the cam that DETERMINES the stroke, not the other way around. I know you can have the distributor installed 180 degrees off, but I don't think a cam can be 180 degrees off.

I know you can install a cam off if it is not lined up correctly with the crank, but I'm not referring to that.

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Old 01-07-2004, 11:01 PM   #2
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Shouldn't make a difference. The cylinder will either be on the power stroke (both valves closed) or the exhaust stroke (Ex. closing, In. opening).

But like you said, the distributor will be 180* off.

Greg
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Old 01-08-2004, 12:25 AM   #3
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as long as the 1st piston is all the way up then you cant go wrong with the chain instalation
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Old 01-08-2004, 01:41 PM   #4
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Diddo, I'd like to know how he installed the distributor first....that's a neat trick.
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Old 01-08-2004, 01:52 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by mustanggreg
Shouldn't make a difference. The cylinder will either be on the power stroke (both valves closed) or the exhaust stroke (Ex. closing, In. opening).

But like you said, the distributor will be 180* off.

Greg

That's not true, the cam and dist. turn at 1/2 speed of the crank. Since every 360 degrees rotation of the crank and cam will turn 180 degrees. If the cam turns 360 degrees, the crank will rotate 720 degrees. That means the crankshaft will be in the correct firing position twice if the cam rotates 360 degrees. That also means that the crank is in the correct position every 180 degrees of camshaft rotation.

It's the cam timing and valve events that detirmine when the plug should fire (i.e after the intake event, not after the exhaust event), the crankshaft is in the exact same spot each time.

In other words, there isn't any such thing as the cam being off 180 degrees off on a modern, production 4 stroke engine.
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Old 01-08-2004, 04:33 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doktor
That's not true, the cam and dist. turn at 1/2 speed of the crank. Since every 360 degrees rotation of the crank and cam will turn 180 degrees. If the cam turns 360 degrees, the crank will rotate 720 degrees. That means the crankshaft will be in the correct firing position twice if the cam rotates 360 degrees.
As long as #1 (in this instance) is at TDC, it doesn't matter if the cam is put in dot to dot or where the dot (on the cam) is 180* from that. The only problem would be where the rotor is positioned. Either at the #1 firing position or 180* from that position.

Quote:
That also means that the crank is in the correct position every 180 degrees of camshaft rotation.
Right, so where am I wrong? You're either on the power stroke or the exhaust stroke (obviously dictated by the cam). There is no either or. If you're on the powerstroke then the rotor will be positioned right below the rotor wire for that plug. If it's on the exhaust stroke, then simply turn it 180*.

Quote:
It's the cam timing and valve events that detirmine when the plug should fire (i.e after the intake event, not after the exhaust event), the crankshaft is in the exact same spot each time.


Bingo, it just means that he has to adjust the distributor, and doesn't have to rip the cam out!

Quote:
In other words, there isn't any such thing as the cam being off 180 degrees off on a modern, production 4 stroke engine.
Yep.

Greg
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Old 01-08-2004, 04:52 PM   #7
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I have heard of some timing chain gears that are installed with the "dots" at 12 o'clock on both the cam gear and the crank gear. For these particular sets, installing them in that particular way, puts the cam in proper phase (straight up).

This is of course not the case in the majority of timing sets where the cam gear "dot" is at 6 o'clock and the crank gear "dot" is at 12 o'clock.

I've only heard of such a setup and never seen one.

Fact or fiction.
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Old 01-08-2004, 05:07 PM   #8
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Mustanggreg I'm not sure what your point is since you're agreeing with me.

I don't know why the dist. would be 180 off since you'd have it out while installing the cam and you would just re-install the dist. like you always would.
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Old 01-08-2004, 08:42 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doktor
Mustanggreg I'm not sure what your point is since you're agreeing with me.


My point? I forgot! You said I was wrong in my first post. I said the same thing as you except I was first, so you're actually agreeing with me.

Quote:
I don't know why the dist. would be 180 off since you'd have it out while installing the cam and you would just re-install the dist. like you always would.
That's true, except he was wondering if installing the cam 180* off would make a difference. It won't, except if you didn't realize you installed incorrectly yet installed the distributor where it should've been.

Anyways, we said the same thing. Me, well, I said it a couple of times.

Take care.

Greg

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Old 01-08-2004, 11:52 PM   #10
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Question:

So if i am planning on installing a new cam, is the best way to make sure that the #1 piston is at TDC before pulling the old cam out and then do the Removal?

Thanks,
Scott
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Old 01-09-2004, 12:34 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by mstngjoe
I have heard of some timing chain gears that are installed with the "dots" at 12 o'clock on both the cam gear and the crank gear. For these particular sets, installing them in that particular way, puts the cam in proper phase (straight up).

This is of course not the case in the majority of timing sets where the cam gear "dot" is at 6 o'clock and the crank gear "dot" is at 12 o'clock.

I've only heard of such a setup and never seen one.

Fact or fiction.
You could do that with any set. Turning the cam 180* is the same as turning the crank 360* I think most people don't because its easier to eyeball the marks when they are closer together.

Now turning the crank 180* to 6 o'clock and lining dots up....that would cause problems...
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Old 01-09-2004, 02:37 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by GaryJ
Now turning the crank 180* to 6 o'clock and lining dots up....that would cause problems...
Unless you're really good at eyeballing 3 o'clock.
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Old 01-09-2004, 02:47 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Insurancepro
Question:

So if i am planning on installing a new cam, is the best way to make sure that the #1 piston is at TDC before pulling the old cam out and then do the Removal?

Thanks,
Scott
No need to check TDC before you pull the cam out. You can get back to TDC easy enough once you have the new cam in. Besides, things are likely to move around just a tad when you are putting things together, and the degree wheel will probably interfere with the cam install.

Just yank everything apart, put in the new cam, then get TDC squared away.
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Old 01-09-2004, 07:00 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Doktor
That's not true, the cam and dist. turn at 1/2 speed of the crank. Since every 360 degrees rotation of the crank and cam will turn 180 degrees. If the cam turns 360 degrees, the crank will rotate 720 degrees.
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Old 01-09-2004, 08:16 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Insurancepro
Question:

So if i am planning on installing a new cam, is the best way to make sure that the #1 piston is at TDC before pulling the old cam out and then do the Removal?

Thanks,
Scott
It does not matter!!TDC before the chain is
put on,then Degree!!You can't go wrong.
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Old 01-09-2004, 08:25 PM   #16
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I am checking this out?Why would anyone want to do it diff.
then the right way?TDC,set chain up as followed!I have done
many cam swaps in the past,and have learned to do it this way,
and never have seen anyone else do it diff.!!Im not talking
down Anything here,Im willing to learn something new is there
is reason behinde it?
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Old 01-11-2004, 05:54 PM   #17
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trying to learn myself

I have seen many cam installations, if the degree's are not important, and you cannot put one in 180 off, then why sell degree wheel's? I mean if it is all about lining up dots then why bother with a degree wheel. I am no flaming just curious.
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Old 01-11-2004, 06:02 PM   #18
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Re: trying to learn myself

Quote:
Originally posted by 90GT398
"Execute,Execute,Execute, move out, get the distance"

That looks familiar...........Welcome aboard Carl!

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Old 01-11-2004, 06:19 PM   #19
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On engines with the distributor run off the cam, the distributor must be installed at the proper position within 360 degrees in order to be in sync with the valve events caused by the camshaft. Then the crankshaft must be lined up so that the top of a stroke coincides with either both valves shut or in overlap, which means the cam can be 180 degrees off (two possible ways to install) since two revolutions of the crank occur for every revolution of the cam.

On engines with the distributor run off the crank, the cam and crank MUST be lined up one specific way; if the cam is 180 degrees off the valve events will still coincide with piston movement but the distributor will be 180 degrees off.

If the distributor is going to be installed after the cam, then it does not matter how things line up so long as the timing marks coincide at some point and then the distributor is installed at the proper position within a 360 degree revolution.
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Old 01-12-2004, 12:57 AM   #20
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Re: trying to learn myself

Quote:
Originally posted by 90GT398
I have seen many cam installations, if the degree's are not important, and you cannot put one in 180 off, then why sell degree wheel's? I mean if it is all about lining up dots then why bother with a degree wheel. I am no flaming just curious.
As long as you line it up dot to dot and the cam is ground correctly then true, you would not need one. But all cams are not ground correctly, or they often come with more than one intake centerline depending on the weight of the car (per Ed Curtis). Degreeing the cam verifies that the cam is installed with the correct intake centerline, that the specs on the cam are correct, and that you have installed it correctly.

If you buy a cam and it is 'supposed' to come with a 112 intake centerline, for example, and you degree the cam and the numbers come out to be 110 intake centerline, then you advance/retard the cam to match what the number is supposed to be. I had to advance my cam 2 degrees to match Ed's number, since my car is heavy and he wanted me to have the higher intake centerline number for extra torque to help get my car down the track faster.

It's for verification purposes. Not all cams will degree out exactly right. Do a search, many (possibly even most) installations require a small advance/retard to get the cam card specs to come out right. It's those small attention to detail things that help make the little differences.
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Old 10-16-2012, 05:53 PM   #21
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im the only one here?

i am sorry to admit...i am currently trying to figure out where i went wrong ....i have a 2.4 liter dual overhead cam that the head gasket aand water pump blew on....well before i tore the motor down i never bothered to set the crank to tdc.....i know...i know....after hours of reading and going nuts, i decided to put the car back together...im stuck now thanks to this mistake.....back to reading, and i come across your post, so i signed up to post this reply in hopes someone out there can help me....my problem is that in order to change the head gasket i had to change the head bolts because they stretch out over time or whatever.....so in order to be able to get the head bolts out of the head, i had to take the 2 cams out....so while i did this ...as i said before...never bothered to set tdc....i took cams out, and took valves out replaced the valve stem seals and did inspection of lashes and springs and valves...everything was within tolerance so i put it back together....now while screwing around and such i decided to set the crank to tdc ...i believe tht i installed the ca,ms wrong, got car to turn over but it wont start...no matter how perfect i set everything to tdc.......i have even tried to set the crank and the cams with the original marks that i originally made when i tore the car down....so i guess my question is the same as yours...can you sirs, really install the cams wrong.....they would only sit in one side...no way to screw tht up, but im wondering if you can set the cams 180 off then after all the messing around ....i know obviously my timing is way off , so since yes there is someone out there who didnt set the crank to tdc before tearing the motor down, is there a way for me to completely reset the timing?????and how do i do it.....
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Old 10-16-2012, 06:15 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by cponzi View Post
i am sorry to admit...i am currently trying to figure out where i went wrong ....i have a 2.4 liter dual overhead cam that the head gasket aand water pump blew on....well before i tore the motor down i never bothered to set the crank to tdc.....i know...i know....after hours of reading and going nuts, i decided to put the car back together...im stuck now thanks to this mistake.....back to reading, and i come across your post, so i signed up to post this reply in hopes someone out there can help me....my problem is that in order to change the head gasket i had to change the head bolts because they stretch out over time or whatever.....so in order to be able to get the head bolts out of the head, i had to take the 2 cams out....so while i did this ...as i said before...never bothered to set tdc....i took cams out, and took valves out replaced the valve stem seals and did inspection of lashes and springs and valves...everything was within tolerance so i put it back together....now while screwing around and such i decided to set the crank to tdc ...i believe tht i installed the ca,ms wrong, got car to turn over but it wont start...no matter how perfect i set everything to tdc.......i have even tried to set the crank and the cams with the original marks that i originally made when i tore the car down....so i guess my question is the same as yours...can you sirs, really install the cams wrong.....they would only sit in one side...no way to screw tht up, but im wondering if you can set the cams 180 off then after all the messing around ....i know obviously my timing is way off , so since yes there is someone out there who didnt set the crank to tdc before tearing the motor down, is there a way for me to completely reset the timing?????and how do i do it.....
2.4L DOHC is pretty vague, what car are you even talking about.
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Old 10-16-2012, 06:34 PM   #23
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Several people in the thread (nameless) seem to have cam timing (which is also called valve timing) and ignition timing confused. The two don't have anything to do with each other....although, if both aren't set properly things can go really wrong for the motor in a variety of ways.
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Old 10-16-2012, 06:50 PM   #24
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Hopefully the op got the problem solved since this thread is from 2004, lol.
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Old 10-16-2012, 07:44 PM   #25
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2.4L DOHC is pretty vague, what car are you even talking about.

dodge stratus, i know...i know...not a ford, but this is crazy....

also this thread started in 2004...lol...well sorry..like i said..google sent me here....

here is a pic tht i made as of where the valves are as the car sits....

i know not very good but.....
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Old 10-16-2012, 07:54 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by cponzi View Post
2.4L DOHC is pretty vague, what car are you even talking about.

dodge stratus, i know...i know...not a ford, but this is crazy....

also this thread started in 2004...lol...well sorry..like i said..google sent me here....

here is a pic tht i made as of where the valves are as the car sits....

i know not very good but.....
Your google skillz my be lacking

Line up your marks like he does and get the belt on, make sure they stay there after you rotate the engine around by hand at least once.

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Old 10-16-2012, 07:55 PM   #27
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find a local shop and see if they will give you the info from mitchell or alldata. you might even be able to get the info at the dealer. otherwise you'll have to break down and order a chiltons manual. what I would probably do before all that if I was you is look on a dodge forum lol
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Old 10-16-2012, 07:56 PM   #28
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oh Goody got it while I was typing. somebody buy that man a drink! :cheers:
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