351 Clevor Build - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 41 Old 06-16-2017, 06:04 AM Thread Starter
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351 Clevor Build

Hi Corral,

I am looking to build a bang for buck windsor to replace my tired 302 in my 94 cobra. Not looking for a track car, just a really fast daily. Affording machining, rotating assemblies, and aluminum heads for a windsor stroker seemed a bit steep. The clevor had come up as a viable option using a legendary iron head and virtually bulletproof block. I have been using this page for reference as many of the helpful threads were flooded with naysayers and purists. ( Clevor Head Mod ) I am a 19 year old servicemen, living off of a small income making this a very attractive option. Unique and uncommon builds such as the Clevor peak my attention easily and am always looking for a way to distance myself from the pack.

I have recently purchased a 95 F4TE block from an F150 as to avoid modding to fit a roller cam. I will be running the C4 currently in the cobra with a slightly beefed up rebuild, low converter, and shift kit followed by 3.73 or 4.10 gears. I have intentions of boosting when the funds arise but am looking to build a stable bottom end with some good flow and kick until then. Can any of the veteran builders of the corral recommend a build combo to reach close to 400bhp n/a. I am looking to the old school builders for advice as in recent years these builds have become obsolete to the aftermarket rise. I am not dead set on the Clevor and all opinions are welcome and appreciated but only the reasonable and helpful considered. Thank you.

Very Respectfully,
Justin

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post #2 of 41 Old 06-16-2017, 07:12 AM
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I did a ton of research regarding a clevor build, I think youll find its gonna be cheaper to buy some good inline heads and go that route. it was for me anyway

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post #3 of 41 Old 06-16-2017, 07:16 AM Thread Starter
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dads67coupe,

Thank you for such a quick reply, any recommendations to reach my goals without a massive hit?

Very Respectfully,
Justin
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post #4 of 41 Old 06-16-2017, 07:29 AM
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dads67coupe,

Thank you for such a quick reply, any recommendations to reach my goals without a massive hit?

Very Respectfully,
Justin
400hp is pretty easy with a 351w. if you are on a real tight budget, I'd scour the classifieds for a set of afr or twisted wedge heads. They can be had pretty reasonable. The thing that got me was by the time you address all the issues in the cleveland heads (lack of hardend valve seats, replace guides, replace the crappy 2 piece valves with something good) and buy springs and the rest of the associated hardware, you are knocking on the door of a decent set of inline heads, especially if you can find a deal on a set.

Plus you are going to run into things such as buying pistons for the swap, they are out there, but usually a fair amount more expensive than the more common inline or TW head slugs. Also you will need to address the coolant crossover issue in the front, parts/kits are available, but another added expense.

Then you run into the intakes, there are a couple made for the "clevor" swap, but again pricier than their windsor counterparts.

Its certainly a cool idea, but its not going to be anywhere near as budget friendly as you originally thought
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post #5 of 41 Old 06-16-2017, 09:09 AM
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There is also no modding needed to run a hydraulic roller in an early Windsor block. A good set of Howard's/Morel/Lunati link bar lifters is all you need.
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post #6 of 41 Old 06-16-2017, 11:13 AM
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you will have to drill the deck of the block and block off a water passage in the head. ideally you drill the front and back of each head and run the TFS water neck kit. that helped to keep cool a lot on my buddies clevor. https://www.trickflow.com/parts/tfs-51600600





it ran 6.30s in the 1/8th on motor.
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post #7 of 41 Old 06-16-2017, 03:55 PM Thread Starter
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6.30 et is impressive for an all motor setup. Any idea on the specs of the build? I am looking into Windsor heads but am still very intrigued by the clevor. Cleveland heads of all kinds are readily available in the immediate area for reasonable prices.
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post #8 of 41 Old 06-16-2017, 05:00 PM
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Have you priced cleveland flanged headers for an sn95? For 400hp, doing anything more than a bone stock 351 short block with an afr or trick flow head is not the economical route thats for sure.

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post #9 of 41 Old 06-16-2017, 05:24 PM
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6.30 et is impressive for an all motor setup. Any idea on the specs of the build? I am looking into Windsor heads but am still very intrigued by the clevor. Cleveland heads of all kinds are readily available in the immediate area for reasonable prices.
it was an 81 block, an eagle 4340 crank 4.0 stroke i bought used for $300 off of ebay that i traded him for. it had 2.1" rod journals, he had some GRPs he picked up cheap, but they were 2.0 journals so the crank got cut. the pistons were used, the 4v cleveland closed chambers he had $400 bucks in, some howards solid roller lifters and a howards solid roller. i think it was 266/274 around .670 lift. 11:1 compression. it went 108mph like that. it had some comp ultra pro mags and some 730lb PSI springs that i had laying around. then we swapped a straub solid roller in it and it went 111 mph. the intake came off ebay for around $100. had to make the valley pan, the carb was an aed 1000. the headers were a 1.875 - 3.5" collector that was used for $100 or something. a used hamburgers pan. he had $4500 in it carb to pan, but other than machine work everything was done in the garage and had a lot of time in it. c4, 5800 rpm ati converter, transbrake, mt 3055s slicks, 3000lbs, it had some gear in it. he was shifting at 7500 with the howards cam and 8k with the straub cam. the straub cam had quite a bit more exhaust duration. with 7/16" pushrods no guideplates were needed.

this is the place i would talk to about headers for one unless you can find some used junk you can make work. it wasnt a cookie cutter deal but it ran 1.30 60's on motor. he sold the car about a year ago.


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post #10 of 41 Old 06-17-2017, 12:28 PM
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the "Clevor" as its called now/today has been around since the late 60's, before even the "Cleveland" came out (clevor/boss 302)

some dont know FORD even had made some other prototype canted valve xe heads back in late 60's for the windsor blocks...

>XE 351 Clevor head<

friend here is doing econo clevor/boss 402 right now with C9 block, bt boss copy intake, boss type heads with >PME< adapter stuff

we started farting around with cleveland/clevor stuff in early 80's and the "Clevor" has become even more popular today with econo...

>Clevor/Cleveland kits<


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post #11 of 41 Old 06-17-2017, 01:26 PM
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Hey, thank you for your service...first and foremost. That being said, the coolness factor of a Cleveland head can't be understated. However, in actuality the factory C heads can't really compete with modern aluminum aftermarket Windsor heads. Combustion chamber design and attention to port velocity have changed alot in 50 years. If you shop the Windsor classifieds on here, you can find a decent set of heads for less than $850 almost any time you look. And as Woody referenced above, if you go Clevor your headers are going to be expensive. If you stay windsor, either a 302 stroker or 351 based, again you can find everything you need cheap. I am going to swap the 302 in my 85 for a 351. I am in no hurry so I shopped the classifieds a lot. Found some 351 swap headers for less than $300! I got the headers, and Air Gap intake, roller cam, link bar roller lifters, balancer and distributor from the Windsor classifieds on this site. I've been a bit lazy, but I've pretty much got everything I need except gaskets to do the swap. I am running a set of ProComp heads. They don't compare to ARF, TFS or Edelbrock, but they were $650 brand new and have worked fine on the 302.

If you go the Clevor route, make sure you find and follow the instructions on the water port modifications needed on the block and the heads. If I were doing a Clevor I would go with aftermarket aluminum heads...again the 50 year old factory stuff just lacks the engineering the modern heads have. Not that they can't run well, it's just easier with modern stuff. An International 345 can be made to run if you have enough money.
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post #12 of 41 Old 06-17-2017, 02:54 PM
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you can make over 600 flywheel hp on motor with a set of $400 4v closed chambers. so, despite being extremely old technology, they work well enough to run 9s in the 1/4 on motor in a 3k lb car. and for the power per $ they work really well. the headers thing is funny, used stuff is out there....
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post #13 of 41 Old 06-17-2017, 05:18 PM
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BOSS 402 4V

the "Clevor" Boss 4V engine that Ford should have/could have put out in 1969 ...



the 4V head design was more advanced than some know... >Boss/TransAm 4V Heads<
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post #14 of 41 Old 06-17-2017, 05:25 PM
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you can make over 600 flywheel hp on motor with a set of $400 4v closed chambers. so, despite being extremely old technology, they work well enough to run 9s in the 1/4 on motor in a 3k lb car. and for the power per $ they work really well. the headers thing is funny, used stuff is out there....
Ditto, the Cleveland heads are much better than the vast majority of the Windsor heads being bought/sold/talked about. You can't touch the power numbers without getting into the serious bigger Windsor heads, the $2000+ new stuff. Low end and mid range are another story, thus people are happy with their Windsor choices.

The parts do exist, but finding them is super tough, and for good prices, don't count on it. The others are correct, you will spend a ton more for a Clevor, the intake/exhaust and modifications will eat the budget. Go with the Windsor until later, or you come upon a nice set of the unique Cleveland parts that it'll take. Woody and others here can steer you well for any combination you might like.

I'd suggest hunting the best price you can for a used set of TFS Twisted Wedge head, larger versions to support a 408 stroker. That kind of combination will make most people happy, and the build is easy given the hundreds of examples on this forum and others.

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post #15 of 41 Old 06-17-2017, 10:42 PM
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why wouldn't you just do a 393 or 427? Is it cheaper to do a clevor?
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post #16 of 41 Old 06-18-2017, 12:14 AM
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I'm a big time Clevor fan. There was a time when you couldn't find aluminum heads for a SBF on every street corner. Where I used to race, the rules required stock cast iron heads. The Clevor was the hot ticket. Made the bowtie boys cry the blues. There is more than one way to build a Clevor. I've built them with 9.5" and 9.2" deck heights from 351W blocks as well as mock Boss 302's. I've never had trouble with the valve seats. The exhaust system will be an issue with a 94 Mustang, but there are headers out there. A Clevor is definitely old school but, you won't see one every day. If you really want to build one, I'd be glad to answer any questions.
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post #17 of 41 Old 06-18-2017, 01:52 AM
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FORD 351 CLEVELAND D1ZE DA 4V OPEN CHAMBER 1971 1972 COBRAJET CYLINDER HEAD | eBay

not as cheap as they used to be....but still not horrible.
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post #18 of 41 Old 06-18-2017, 08:01 AM
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FORD 351 CLEVELAND D1ZE DA 4V OPEN CHAMBER 1971 1972 COBRAJET CYLINDER HEAD | eBay

not as cheap as they used to be....but still not horrible.
Me too, I remember when $200 got you a pair complete. I have two pairs myself, the open chambers I practiced some porting on. I ought to dig those out and let them go.

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post #19 of 41 Old 06-18-2017, 08:53 AM Thread Starter
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Cab0154,

I like the setup and definitely proves its worth at the track. I'll use that as a reference if I go this route.
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post #20 of 41 Old 06-18-2017, 09:36 AM Thread Starter
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droopie,

Thank you for your advice as it was very helpful. I have looked into the stroker options and had planned a 408 but am beginning to have second thoughts as the price of heads, machining, and a rotating assembly brings the total cost well over 6-7k. The attraction of the clevor comes from the fact it is a practice with proven results rarely seen in modern muscle. GM had camelbacks. Chrysler had a REAL hemi. Ford had a boss. All of which haven't been used in decades and sometimes people need reminders of what power looked like. I have been looking into aftermarket windsor heads but finding a decent pair worth anything to a bigger inch motor is tough. AFR 205cc are imo the best bang for buck for a 351-408 but are well over 2 grand a pair. Finding a pair someone hasn't already destroyed is important as I live on base and no longer have access to a shop or garage and builders in my location are scarce and few in far between. Thanks again.

Very Respectfully,
Justin
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post #21 of 41 Old 06-18-2017, 09:41 AM Thread Starter
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Enjoy the ride,

I have considered those options also, in particular the 393. Both require a flowing head and rotating assembly to compliment the displacement but are comparable in price to the 408 I was already pricing out. In my area it may be cheaper as I have found plentiful c heads but results vary but have not looked into the machining cost of these heads in depth.

Very Respectfully,
Justin
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post #22 of 41 Old 06-18-2017, 09:46 AM Thread Starter
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CDW6212R,

Thank you for the suggestions. I will take this into consideration seeing how many have recommended these setups. I was pricing a similar build but I seem to have an issue holding onto my budget as bills and repairs on my daily are in no shortage. Intake wouldn't be all that difficult as there are aftermarkets for the modern clevor but the exhaust is a different story. Thanks again for your help.

Very Respectfully,
Justin
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post #23 of 41 Old 06-18-2017, 09:56 AM Thread Starter
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Racer64,

Thank you for your input. I was going for old school and uncommon when looking at builds. Most are swapping to LS or Coyote considering the power gains using a motor with such stock potential. I haven't the budget or interest in a more modern build as they are becoming common and overused. The exhaust would unfortunately be the largest setback in the entire build. 2v and 4v heads can be found near me for under 300 but alike the others, will need freshening. Thank you for the help and will be sure to get ahold of you if questions arise.

Very Respectfully,
Justin
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post #24 of 41 Old 06-18-2017, 10:43 AM
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Whatever you do, have fun. If you do a Clevor, I would love to see it. All it takes is to see those valve covers under the hood and I am instantly intrigued. If you're not in a huge hurry, check out the classifieds here, Craigslist, yellowbullet, etc and I am sure you can find what you need for either a Clevor or a Windsor. My best advice before you buy anything, write down a clear plan for what you want and stick to it. If not, most people tend to end up with a wandering mind and mismatched parts.
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droopie,

Thanks man, I've been pondering this build for 2 years now and have only gotten as far as picking up the core. I was originally just going to rebuild with forged internals and add the on3 turbo kit on 7 psi to make ballpark 500 but the build lacked the creativity and aesthetics. I may still do it just to get it over with because I feel i could be at this stage of the build forever. I will continue to research my options. Thanks for your suggestions and advice.

Very Respectfully,
Justin
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post #26 of 41 Old 06-18-2017, 10:51 PM
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we had those same 4v heads on a 9:1 compression 358 with a 255/261 .600 lift solid flat tappet before they were on the 410. same car, with an AED 750 carb and a cheap restrictor plate 9.5 deck intake and it went 6.80s@98mph in the 1/8th on motor at the same weight. but any number of clevor intakes will work. when you do a small displacement deal with the big heads a good carb will help out a bunch. we had a holley 830 on it that ran great with a 347 and some rhs 215s (6.50s@105 on motor), but had a bog on the secondary side with the clevor. my guess would be that the bigger head (cleveland 4v cross section is 2.9 sq inches vs the RHS 215s at 2.45") had less booster signal through the carb. tried a holley hp 750, same problem and we tried everything. ran 7.30s with those 2 carbs. sent it back for the aed 750, put it on and it went 6.80s. if you get into it and have any questions just PM me.
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post #27 of 41 Old 06-20-2017, 05:31 AM
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402 4V Clevor

imo a 4 inch crank swap is a MUST DO for Clevor builds with 4V type heads, with all the budget 4" Stroker Cranks and Rods out now its easier/cheaper than ever to do now and there are even cheaper ready made off the shelf Clevor pistons to pic from today...

https://www.summitracing.com/int/sea...or-ford-clevor

Fords 9.5" w block makes for a Excellent 4.00" crank / 6.250" rod combo with an Excellent 1.56 rod ratio / 1.250 comp height piston thats even good enough for circuit/road racing.

4v heads love 4" cranks ...

http://www.racingpartsmaximum.com/fo...elsae4340.html

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I had a numbers matching M code 70 Mach 1 with the 4V 351, 11 to 1 compression and FMX tranny. It came with 3.0 gears and was a dog around town. I put 3.50's in it and it woke it up a bit more. On the highway it was outstanding, but the 4V heads were WAY to big for a spirited street car. I always thought if it had a top loader, it would be perfect and if it had more cubic inches, it would be ideal. I think a set of 4V heads under a 393 or bigger short block would be crazy fun. If you look at the size of the intake ports on a set of 4V Cleveland heads, you would be amazed. Particularly if you have not seen a set before. You can drive a damn truck through them. They are huge. Bob Glidden didn't even use the full size in his Pro Stock days. He made them smaller to win his races with them. https://www.mecum.com/lots/FL0111-10...nto-pro-stock/

Having run a original 4V Cleveland on the streets, I laugh at the guys that say some of these CHI heads are too big. They call them 3V because they are in between the 2V and 4V heads in size. They make great HP and Torque because of it. If you want to stay with a original Cleveland and run mostly on the street, I would opt for the 2V head. If you want to drag race or road race and are going to put some cubic inches under it, I would go 4V.

Good luck in whatever way you go. It will be a blast either way.

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post #29 of 41 Old 06-20-2017, 06:16 AM
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EDIT

360 (10.5 to 1, ADPerformance SCAT 4340 assembly), FTI AFR 225, FTI Edelbrock Victor EFI, FTI Cam, Pro M 80 MM (42lb injectors), KOOKS Longtubes 1 7/8 inch to 2 inch to 3.5 inch collectors, Pro Motion TKO, FMS 4.88, Global West Suspension, ET Drags, TwEECer RT (3317 lbs with me)

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post #30 of 41 Old 06-20-2017, 09:47 AM
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Well said Ed. I grew up with a 72 Gran Torino and 351C-2V heads. That was my first car, and I learned to build my first engine with a 351C-4V, stuck in the GT. It had the C4 and I put 3.25 gears in it, that was as you said soft at low rpm's, and big fun at speed.

I hope the CHI 3V heads are big enough, that's my choice except for the version. I want just a 351 but I'm not sure the little 185cc head is enough for 6500rpm, street only with 3.50 gears and an OD.
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post #31 of 41 Old 06-20-2017, 03:58 PM
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about the 4V head, one of the biggest mistakes guys made in the past was to port match/grind out the intakes to 4v heads,
the real trick was to port match/fill in the 4v heads to the intakes...

4V 351 boss #9425

4V 302 boss #9424


old P/S racers that did fill the int ports were just replicating the original shorter 2-1/4" tall port 4v boss (Trans Am) race head...

>http://www.ponysite.de/transam_stevens3.htm<





>4V-T/A port inserts<

the so called aussie "3V" port heads were Copyed
from the old svo A3 b,c port design which again came from the original 4v Boss/TransAm race head
even the 4v "port stuffer" some aussies like to take credit for is a rip off/copy of Ford Indys org 1969 insert design
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post #32 of 41 Old 06-20-2017, 05:14 PM
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That makes sense. The bottom of the ports are just out of line with a straight path for the airflow. The ports could have been made higher, much higher, but no intake was really much taller than the first single planes made for it. I have a NOS Torker in the box, planned to put on a 400 before strokers existed.

The exhaust ports were what needed the most help, again way too low, bottom of ports wasted volume. It's like the designed the heads to go into a car that was 18" shorter and narrower than the big cars they actually put them into. The 69 Mustang had plenty of space to use an intake 6+ inches taller, and headers that'd come straight out for 2-3" at least. Maybe the same engineers that built the Explorer exhaust manifolds, did the Cleveland heads. They certainly were not car guys.

Don
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post #33 of 41 Old 06-20-2017, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by CDW6212R View Post
Well said Ed. I grew up with a 72 Gran Torino and 351C-2V heads. That was my first car, and I learned to build my first engine with a 351C-4V, stuck in the GT. It had the C4 and I put 3.25 gears in it, that was as you said soft at low rpm's, and big fun at speed.

I hope the CHI 3V heads are big enough, that's my choice except for the version. I want just a 351 but I'm not sure the little 185cc head is enough for 6500rpm, street only with 3.50 gears and an OD.


For street only and that cubic inch I bet they would be great. I am told the 185 isn't the raised port like the 208, but Dave Storlein got a pump gas, 366 cubic inch, 8.2 inch deck to run over 600 hp and 500 ft lbs and all around 6500 rpm. I bet they would work great for your setup. I would love to put them on a 363. Here is the article.

http://www.351c.net/archive/parts/Pa...fm%20Heads.pdf

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post #34 of 41 Old 06-20-2017, 06:10 PM
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Those are the two I was aiming at Ed, the 185 and 208. Both have Windsor bolt holes in one end of each head. So I can use them with an Explorer front dress, which is two brackets that hold all accessories. I like to use common parts too, which are also on my other cars. Then keeping spare parts is more feasible.
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Don
91 Mark VII LSC SE - soon OBDII and 4R70, GTC kit and 347, custom paint.
1998 Mountaineer, 98 Explorer Limited to soon add 4WD, XP8 parts, KB blower, paint, 332.
99 Limited mail vehicle, SOHC 4WD. 72 Ranchero 351 project
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post #35 of 41 Old 06-20-2017, 07:02 PM
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Clevors

lowfiveo,

I have several Clevors for sale. Pick your cubic inch; 302, 356 or 377. I plan on posting videos of the 302 and 356 running on my engine stand tomorrow. If anyone is interested, I can give details of what is in each one.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 351 Clevor.jpg (134.7 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg 302 Boss Clevor (1).jpg (165.8 KB, 10 views)

Last edited by Racer64; 06-21-2017 at 08:54 PM. Reason: Adding Videos
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