AFR heads part 2 (Buyer beware) - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 56 Old 06-12-2017, 02:01 PM Thread Starter
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AFR heads part 2 (Buyer beware)

While installing my new AFR 185 Renegades; I ran into an issue.
The guideplate fingers hit the inside of the heads and do not allow the plates to sit flush. I had to tear into the valvetrain again after talking to CPR whom I purchased the heads through. They stated that AFR had a tooling issue and that CPR has been grinding down the guideplates to fit.
I emailed AFR and received this reply:

I apologize that you are having this issue. Just take off material off of the guide plate fingers until they no longer press against the casting wall.

You can do this with any of the other guide plates that may be too snug.





Thank you for choosing AFR,



Joshua

Sales and tech. support



I replied with:
Hi Joshua.

Can you show me where this procedure is written in the instructions? I have the engine all assembled and running and just happened to mention the guide plate fitment to my builder at CPR. He then told me about grinding the guide plates. Very frustrating.



AFR's reply:
Yeah it’s not going to be in the instructions. What happened is, we found out that on our older heads, when the machining tool would wear down it was not removing enough material for the clearance of the guide plates. This issue has since been resolved. Sorry again that you had this happen. Grinding them down to fitment is the way to go.



My reply:
These are new heads. Just received them last month.



AFR's reply:
Apologies, I shouldn’t have used the word “older”. We found this problem the beginning of this last April and reprogrammed the machines to compensate for tool wear to remedy this issue.



Ok...so they found the tooling at the beginning of April. I received my heads in May after having to wait a couple of weeks for them to be back in stock. Tooling change? Why were these heads released to the public with the green "QC" sticker stuck to them? There's irony.

I emailed CPR this morning with concern about how far I had to grind the guideplates so as to not interfere with head casting. CPR is not comfortable with how far the guideplates had to be ground and they are seeing the same thing. Their build times are now longer and they aren't happy.
Here's a reply from CPR:
I agree, I called AFR last week for the same issue because we always do a slight grinding but these heads need extra work. It's the foundry that makes them for AFR but AFR should have taken an extra step in the CNC and cut that part down.



Here is a pic of one of my heads showing the issue. Look how close the guideplate fingers come to the curvature of the head after I ground them significantly. It's that curvature that was suppose to be machined deeper so as not to have this issue. Hopefully you guys are able to zoom in on the pic.



Edit: AFR just contacted me and are sending out a full set of guideplates that are pre-cut as well as a t-shirt. I respect their admission of the issue and attempt to correct it. That's great service and hopefully the new plates work.

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post #2 of 56 Old 06-13-2017, 10:51 PM
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YAAAAAAAAA!!! A free T-shirt!!
Big whup.
I thought AFR was the "heads-to-get"!!
Looks like "its all about a buck and QC be darned!"
Sad
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post #3 of 56 Old 06-13-2017, 11:22 PM
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talking to CPR whom I purchased the heads through

They are responsible for everything they sell...

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post #4 of 56 Old 06-14-2017, 01:23 AM
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sometimes thats just hotrodding. i got so tired of messing with guideplates and rockers trying to get the intake geometry right on my profilers, i called T&D. Would have been nice if profiler just said they are a gt40 z head core box with an improved port, because that would have been a handy little piece of information. but in the end they want to sell parts, which is the same thing they are all trying to do. and you gotta pay to play.

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post #5 of 56 Old 06-14-2017, 01:31 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fasterthangas View Post
talking to CPR whom I purchased the heads through

They are responsible for everything they sell...
I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here but let me explain. I purchased a short block from CPR. They had good prices on heads so I bought heads boxes from the factory through CPR.
Let me just say that CPR's customer service is some of the best in the business. The communication is outstanding along with pics of the build. CPR helped me with the AFR head issue and even put in a call to AFR themselves as they were seeing the same issue. Had CPR built a long block for me; I would have held them responsible for making the heads right.
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post #6 of 56 Old 06-14-2017, 01:42 PM Thread Starter
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sometimes thats just hotrodding. i got so tired of messing with guideplates and rockers trying to get the intake geometry right on my profilers, i called T&D. Would have been nice if profiler just said they are a gt40 z head core box with an improved port, because that would have been a handy little piece of information. but in the end they want to sell parts, which is the same thing they are all trying to do. and you gotta pay to play.

I agree fully that this is all part of hot rodding. I mainly wanted to point this issue out to AFR customers as a heads up. (Pun intended.) My beef is that these heads should never have gone out to the consumer. The QC sticker bares no credible meaning in my eyes.

Now I'm left wondering what kind of valve job came with my heads per my first AFR thread. I wish I had them checked out.
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post #7 of 56 Old 06-14-2017, 04:53 PM
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I feel you. You buy something that is supposed to be straight forward and it isnt. I was told standard ford everything worked on the profilers. No mention of relocated valves, it was actually supposed to be a stock valve placement head. So I had similar frustration.
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post #8 of 56 Old 06-14-2017, 05:08 PM
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What shaft rocker system is that?

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post #9 of 56 Old 06-14-2017, 05:42 PM
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These are the things that one does when one is an "engine builder." At least in theory, we are not assembling....until the final, which occurs after we have gone through all of the parts six times to make certain everything is where it is supposed to be.

Every part has issues, every supplier has issues, every manufacturer has issues.

No amount of whining with change that.
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post #10 of 56 Old 06-14-2017, 05:44 PM
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They are responsible for everything they sell...

No judge in America would agree with that statement.

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post #11 of 56 Old 06-14-2017, 05:50 PM Thread Starter
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These are the things that one does when one is an "engine builder." At least in theory, we are not assembling....until the final, which occurs after we have gone through all of the parts six times to make certain everything is where it is supposed to be.

Every part has issues, every supplier has issues, every manufacturer has issues.

No amount of whining with change that.
No whining here. Just a heads up.
So we should expect less than as advertised?
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post #13 of 56 Old 06-14-2017, 06:04 PM
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What shaft rocker system is that?
T&D steel
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post #14 of 56 Old 06-14-2017, 06:13 PM
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No whining here. Just a heads up.
So we should expect less than as advertised?
Thats typical for him from what ive seen over the years.
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post #15 of 56 Old 06-14-2017, 07:00 PM
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I had the guide plate problems with my my 185s that afr fixed with no problems.when my new 205s dropped a valve seat and ruined everything not so much help but stuff happens.
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post #16 of 56 Old 06-14-2017, 08:06 PM Thread Starter
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Update!

The latest email from AFR:

Your new guide plates are shipping out of my warehouse this evening. It took a little time to go through the process of having a machining program written for the guides.



These are the very first guides that are precut for fitment.



I will email you the UPS tracking number for you tomorrow.



We are sending the guide plates using two day shipping, so they should be in your hands by Friday evening.



And your T shirt should be there tomorrow.





Thank you for choosing AFR,



Joshua

Sales and tech. support





AFR had to literally write a new program to modify their guide plates. I call that great customer service and it pays to give feedback to a company when a product is faulty. If your plates are not sitting flat on the rocker stud pads; contact AFR.

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post #17 of 56 Old 06-14-2017, 08:25 PM Thread Starter
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I had the guide plate problems with my my 185s that afr fixed with no problems.when my new 205s dropped a valve seat and ruined everything not so much help but stuff happens.
How did they fix your guide plate issue?
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post #18 of 56 Old 06-14-2017, 08:26 PM
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I wonder if Trickflow have problems like that in their manifacturing?
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post #19 of 56 Old 06-14-2017, 08:48 PM
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T-shirt = all better now
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It's the nature of "bolt-ons" in the new era.
Everything bolts right on... After a trip across the Bridgeport and a welder.
It parallels ALL manufactured products in the U.S. If it's affordable, it is usually made in a "low-cost" country. The higher end parts are still made here, but even then, some operations happen overseas, and some happen here. Not many aftermarket manufacturers do castings in the U.S. anymore. How many crank and rod forgings are U.S.?? Very few. And trust me they are NOT "affordable" to the average guy dicking around with a Foxbody out in the garage after work.

It's not fair. Particularly to the inexperienced engine builder. The OP caught the issue. There are probably some guys out there who didn't.
Pros like Woody can fill page after page of him catching and correcting supplier quality issues. Because he knows what to check, how to check it, and has the tools to do so. Not all are so fortunate.

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It's the nature of "bolt-ons" in the new era.
Everything bolts right on... After a trip across the Bridgeport and a welder.
It parallels ALL manufactured products in the U.S. If it's affordable, it is usually made in a "low-cost" country. The higher end parts are still made here, but even then, some operations happen overseas, and some happen here. Not many aftermarket manufacturers do castings in the U.S. anymore. How many crank and rod forgings are U.S.?? Very few. And trust me they are NOT "affordable" to the average guy dicking around with a Foxbody out in the garage after work.

It's not fair. Particularly to the inexperienced engine builder. The OP caught the issue. There are probably some guys out there who didn't.
Pros like Woody can fill page after page of him catching and correcting supplier quality issues. Because he knows what to check, how to check it, and has the tools to do so. Not all are so fortunate.
I think the same way and couldn't have said it better myself. Poor quality should never be adequate.
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post #22 of 56 Old 06-14-2017, 10:39 PM Thread Starter
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T-shirt = all better now
Lol. They are making it right so I can't bag on them too much.

Frankly I'm surprised at the lack of comments like "Fake news".
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I wonder if Trickflow have problems like that in their manifacturing?
If you manufacture, you have problems.
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It's the nature of "bolt-ons" in the new era.
Everything bolts right on... After a trip across the Bridgeport and a welder.
It parallels ALL manufactured products in the U.S. If it's affordable, it is usually made in a "low-cost" country. The higher end parts are still made here, but even then, some operations happen overseas, and some happen here. Not many aftermarket manufacturers do castings in the U.S. anymore. How many crank and rod forgings are U.S.?? Very few. And trust me they are NOT "affordable" to the average guy dicking around with a Foxbody out in the garage after work.

It's not fair. Particularly to the inexperienced engine builder. The OP caught the issue. There are probably some guys out there who didn't.
Pros like Woody can fill page after page of him catching and correcting supplier quality issues. Because he knows what to check, how to check it, and has the tools to do so. Not all are so fortunate.
I've been doing this stuff for almost 50 years. Stuff is better now than it has ever been.

And Jim isn't "fortunate." I know better than anyone one this board that he started from scratch and learned to build motors,and his business, because we were involved with him from the beginning. It was pure hard work, not an ounce of "fortune" was involved.

"Fair?" This isn't politics. This is people. People make mistakes. People miss things. "Fair" has nothing to do with it.
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post #25 of 56 Old 06-15-2017, 06:22 AM
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afr sent me a set of isky adjustable guide plates.they acted like I was the first person to run into this.this was about 4-5 years ago with the 185s.the valve seat dropped out of the 205s in august last year.
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post #26 of 56 Old 06-15-2017, 06:59 AM
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I'm truly amazed at all the people on this forum who have never made a mistake in their lives.

Here I thought there was only one person born on earth that was perfect, about a couple thousand years ago! Then again, look what they did to him!




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post #27 of 56 Old 06-15-2017, 07:37 AM
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That's all part of hot rodding unfortunately....we modify and tweak these cars with aftermarket "bolt on" parts an inevitably run into issues.
Glad the o.p. got it corrected and I guess that's all you can ask from the Mfg. at that point. In a perfect world everything would be built to perfect specs but there are just too many variables.

Just look any new car manufacturer they ebb and flow with quality/production issues. Currently Hyundai/Kia are replacing who knows how many 2011-2013 blown engines under warranty due to manufacturing defects.
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"Bolt on" is a complete misnomer and is, at best, stretching the truth in advertising. It has been like this forever. If anyone in this hobby for any length of time is just now figuring this out, they should exit the hobby.

Bolt on may as well be written it will eventually bolt on after you modify and fit and shave and grind.
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post #29 of 56 Old 06-15-2017, 01:06 PM
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Nahhhh

I'm with op on this one
I'd be heated!!!!'
My suggestion?

Once you get ya free beautiful AFR T SHIRT
WIPE ya ass with it, then return to sender
Woops

"Human error"
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post #30 of 56 Old 06-15-2017, 06:10 PM
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well if everyone is going to make junk and still charge top dollar, and not take care of their mistakes, might as well roll the dice and run some pro comp ####. mistakes are one thing, not taking care of your customers after the mistake is how you go out of business.
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well if everyone is going to make junk and still charge top dollar, and not take care of their mistakes, might as well roll the dice and run some pro comp ####. mistakes are one thing, not taking care of your customers after the mistake is how you go out of business.
Just to clarify; AFR is attempting to make care of me. Newly machined guide plates should be here tomorrow. AFR has asked that I take pics of plates installed to see how they fit.
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post #32 of 56 Old 06-15-2017, 07:12 PM Thread Starter
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I'm truly amazed at all the people on this forum who have never made a mistake in their lives.

Here I thought there was only one person born on earth that was perfect, about a couple thousand years ago! Then again, look what they did to him!


https://youtu.be/2NTKRhY0CDs

What happened to the QC advertised here? If one employee is checking every head; I can understand human error. These heads go through multiple processes. This "mistake" has effected more than a few folks. When and if you get a batch of these heads; maybe you can tell them that nobody is perfect. I'm sure a racer in need would appreciate your reasoning.

If one has time to place a QC sticker on a product; they should have the time to actually inspect the product.

Would I purchase an AFR product again? Yes. I would have them checked over completely before installing though. AFR made no excuses and worked with me to resolve the issue. Kudos to them.
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post #33 of 56 Old 06-15-2017, 08:55 PM
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Car dealerships make a living off of fixing brand new 30-40-50-60k dollar cars every single day of the year. The QC, engineering etc has to be far better than AFR, yeah?

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post #34 of 56 Old 06-15-2017, 09:19 PM
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Just to clarify; AFR is attempting to make care of me. Newly machined guide plates should be here tomorrow. AFR has asked that I take pics of plates installed to see how they fit.
I change my suggestion
Now that u have to be AFRs guinea pig
And do there home work, take pics etc etc
Waste ya time
Take a dump on there heads and return to
Sender

Jk

Hopefully it all works out
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post #35 of 56 Old 06-15-2017, 09:21 PM
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Car dealerships make a living off of fixing brand new 30-40-50-60k dollar cars every single day of the year. The QC, engineering etc has to be far better than AFR, yeah?
Is there more then a t shirt involved
If my SRT8s
Rear end is faulty from the factory
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