DCR advice for 91 octane. - Ford Mustang Forums : Corral.net Mustang Forum
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post #1 of 50 Old 03-14-2017, 02:36 AM Thread Starter
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DCR advice for 91 octane.

It is my understanding that DCR should be closer to 8 to run 91 octane safely. I've suffered pinging at high loads with my current combo with very low total timing and I'm looking to solve it. Car has been tuned numerous times.

Current combo:

4.03 bore
3.4 stroke
5.315 rod
Flat tops with - 5cc valve reliefs
61cc chambers
-.010 piston to deck
.030 head gasket thickness
4.1 head gasket bore

Camshaft specs:
224/232 @50
108 icl
112 lobe seperation
Intake closing 40*

Run that through your favorite DCR calculator and look at the DCR value.
Cold cranking compression is 195-202 psi
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm building a new 347 combo and would like to get it more 91 octane friendly. The main difference will be using 5.4" rods.

I'm open for suggestions on changing cam to bleed off more cylinder pressure, different head cc's, head gasket thickness and/or piston dish. I'd like to retain good quench.

Thanks!


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post #2 of 50 Old 03-14-2017, 03:07 AM
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Our hot Phoenix summers make it a pain in the ass!! My 347 is 11:1 compression, very similar to your piston cc and head cc, I haven't driven it in the summer so I'm not sure how it's going to react to the heat, but when I had Ed grind me my cam i specified that were limited to 91 at the pump and out 115 degree summers. He said he would take care of that, and biggest difference I see is our cams, mines in a tighter lsa with more exhaust duration so I have a good amount of over lap. That should help with bleeding out pressure. But if your building another engine I'd probably look into dish pistons but not go as low as 8:1 maybe around 9:5 CR.

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post #3 of 50 Old 03-14-2017, 12:08 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by snakebite90 View Post
Our hot Phoenix summers make it a pain in the ass!! My 347 is 11:1 compression, very similar to your piston cc and head cc, I haven't driven it in the summer so I'm not sure how it's going to react to the heat, but when I had Ed grind me my cam i specified that were limited to 91 at the pump and out 115 degree summers. He said he would take care of that, and biggest difference I see is our cams, mines in a tighter lsa with more exhaust duration so I have a good amount of over lap. That should help with bleeding out pressure. But if your building another engine I'd probably look into dish pistons but not go as low as 8:1 maybe around 9:5 CR.
Ed spec'd my cam as well. It's definitely hard for folks to comprehend the effects of our extreme heat soak as well as just how crappy our pump gas is. When I mentioned "8" I was referring to the DCR. I'm thinking you're correct on keeping the CR around 9.5.

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post #4 of 50 Old 03-14-2017, 04:36 PM
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DCR formulas were in vogue during the early days with the older 23 degree Chevrolet heads and their crappy chamber design. Doesn't hold much water with the current combustion chamber designs.

The LS guys have been finding this out when running high static compression numbers and not so insane cam profiles, so don't hold those "DCR numbers" as Gospel.


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post #5 of 50 Old 03-14-2017, 04:52 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Ed Curtis View Post
DCR formulas were in vogue during the early days with the older 23 degree Chevrolet heads and their crappy chamber design. Doesn't hold much water with the current combustion chamber designs.

The LS guys have been finding this out when running high static compression numbers and not so insane cam profiles, so don't hold those "DCR numbers" as Gospel.
So I should be able to run your custom cam with 10.5:1 CR on 91 octane; Ed? The pinging at higher loads is ridiculous. The tuners I have used are baffled.

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post #6 of 50 Old 03-14-2017, 10:58 PM
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I'm in the same boat with my 347 combo when I start adding boost.

I'm waiting to find out if I can advance/retard my cam slightly or if a new cam is preferable.
I'm super happy with my current cam, except for it not liking much boost. There's no free lunch, and the super nice strong low end torque (in my case) would probably be compromised with a higher overlap cam.

2000 Ford Explorer 347, TW170 fac heads + FTI cam, Wiseco pistons, 72mm rear mount turbo, A/W inter-cooler with front radiator.
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post #7 of 50 Old 03-14-2017, 11:23 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dono2 View Post
I'm in the same boat with my 347 combo when I start adding boost.

I'm waiting to find out if I can advance/retard my cam slightly or if a new cam is preferable.
I'm super happy with my current cam, except for it not liking much boost. There's no free lunch, and the super nice strong low end torque (in my case) would probably be compromised with a higher overlap cam.
Is your cam spec'd for boost and your combo?

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post #8 of 50 Old 03-14-2017, 11:27 PM
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The pinging, is that this year or from previous summers?
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post #9 of 50 Old 03-14-2017, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Dono2 View Post
I'm in the same boat with my 347 combo when I start adding boost.

I'm waiting to find out if I can advance/retard my cam slightly or if a new cam is preferable.
I'm super happy with my current cam, except for it not liking much boost. There's no free lunch, and the super nice strong low end torque (in my case) would probably be compromised with a higher overlap cam.
Usually the boost cams are on a wider lsa, so if your cam doesn't have a lot of duration it reduces overlap.

I'm not sure how much overlap affects torque, my cam is in a 110 lsa with a good amount of overlap and I can tell you my 1st, 2nd and a good chunk of 3rd gear are useless without drag radials
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post #10 of 50 Old 03-14-2017, 11:41 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by snakebite90 View Post
The pinging, is that this year or from previous summers?
2015 and 16. I can't run much more than 21 total timing in the summer.


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post #11 of 50 Old 03-15-2017, 12:28 AM
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Yes, my lsa came out at 114 and was made for my combo.
I am very interested in this, as I seem to be an exception to the rule with timing also. I also am looking for an answer as to why and what to do about it. For all I know, my issue has very little with the cam. I'll be quiet and watch how your thread unfolds since I can't add anything of value.

2000 Ford Explorer 347, TW170 fac heads + FTI cam, Wiseco pistons, 72mm rear mount turbo, A/W inter-cooler with front radiator.
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post #12 of 50 Old 03-15-2017, 12:40 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dono2 View Post
Yes, my lsa came out at 114 and was made for my combo.
I am very interested in this, as I seem to be an exception to the rule with timing also. I also am looking for an answer as to why and what to do about it. For all I know, my issue has very little with the cam. I'll be quiet and watch how your thread unfolds since I can't add anything of value.

I know there can be many factors causing this but I have to wonder if the intake valve needs to stay open longer and/or our fuel is getting worse.
I'm so disgusted that I'm trashing my current 347 and starting all over again with a new build.

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post #13 of 50 Old 03-15-2017, 01:18 AM
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Do you know what your AFR was at WOT or when it starts pinging.? Also have you verified your harmonic balancer is good and your actually set at 10 btdc.?
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post #14 of 50 Old 03-15-2017, 09:18 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by snakebite90 View Post
Do you know what your AFR was at WOT or when it starts pinging.? Also have you verified your harmonic balancer is good and your actually set at 10 btdc.?
12.3 afr at wot. I went as far as to re-degree the cam and installed a new balancer. TDC was verified. 10 initial at idle with spout out.
Car has been tuned by Decipha, Willy at Dirty Dirty Racing and a local guy who tuned for the Prince of Dubai. No kidding! We even pulled the spout and locked the timing in. Pinged like crazy.
I then pulled the MSD distributor and installed a factory unit. No go.
I monitor many variables on my lap top. Car runs great otherwise.

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post #15 of 50 Old 03-15-2017, 10:58 AM
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I can think of a few things that could be the cause of your pinging. Combustion chamber shape, common problem on older heads. Carbon buildup on the pistons or heads. There could be a sharp edge on your combustion chamber that is getting hot. The spark plug ground electrode could be getting hot. If the engine is apart sharp edges are easy to take care of. You can shorten the ground electrode on some plugs, just don't go past the mid point of center electrode.

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I know this isn't exactly ideal, but have you thought about water/meth injection?
While not exactly ideal for a daily driver, it might help. I'd set mine to ramp on under light boost, and you would have options like tps voltage/position to turn on the w/m.

I know Ed is extremely busy right now. If he told me he wanted to to try another cam, I'd just order up the cam from him. I'm with you, I just want this working. My motor is apart, and I'm almost out of time though, so the same cam is probably going back in.

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post #17 of 50 Old 03-15-2017, 11:31 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jmardlin View Post
I can think of a few things that could be the cause of your pinging. Combustion chamber shape, common problem on older heads. Carbon buildup on the pistons or heads. There could be a sharp edge on your combustion chamber that is getting hot. The spark plug ground electrode could be getting hot. If the engine is apart sharp edges are easy to take care of. You can shorten the ground electrode on some plugs, just don't go past the mid point of center electrode.
Thanks for your reply and here's what I know.

The sides of the chambers are laid back and the valves unshrouded. Chambers were then polished. Heads were milled and then chamber edges chamfered. This is very common work and the chamber overall shape is not altered.

As far as carbon...The engine has pinged since day one. It now has a whopping 5k miles on it.

I have tried different heat range plugs which did nothing at all. I can definitely try cutting back the electrodes.

What I don't understand is the fact that my combo is very generic, based on a CHP 347 short block.

I purchased the car with a Dart Block 4.125 bore 331. The same heads and intake were on it. The cam was an Anderson N71. The pistons were dome topped and sitting out of the bore with 61cc heads. No pinging at all. Go figure.

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post #18 of 50 Old 03-15-2017, 11:36 AM Thread Starter
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I know this isn't exactly ideal, but have you thought about water/meth injection?
While not exactly ideal for a daily driver, it might help. I'd set mine to ramp on under light boost, and you would have options like tps voltage/position to turn on the w/m.

I know Ed is extremely busy right now. If he told me he wanted to to try another cam, I'd just order up the cam from him. I'm with you, I just want this working. My motor is apart, and I'm almost out of time though, so the same cam is probably going back in.
I have considered the meth injection many times. To me; it seems like a bandaid. Tuners that have seen many, many combos are stumped with my engine. I keep thinking I missed something and dive back in to try something else with no luck.

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post #19 of 50 Old 03-15-2017, 12:58 PM
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What type of hood do you have? Do you have a cold air intake?

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I have the Cobra R hood. Cone filter is in engine bay up front. Keep in mind that she longs in cool weather as well when ECT's are low. Local tuner had good open and fan on radiator while running on the dyno. He was able to get 19* total before she started to ping. The car couldn't hit 300hp or tq.
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Pings not longs. Lol. Hood open not good open. Darn phone.
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post #22 of 50 Old 03-15-2017, 01:34 PM
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There is something really odd going on with your combination. With the car in my signature if I want I can run 89 octane with 31 deg total timing in the middle of summer if I want to. Granted the temps are lower in Michigan but I have more compression and a smaller cam which should make it worse. I don't get what is going on it yours unless the the chambers are smaller after the heads were milled than what you stated.

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There is something really odd going on with your combination. With the car in my signature if I want I can run 89 octane with 31 deg total timing in the middle of summer if I want to. Granted the temps are lower in Michigan but I have more compression and a smaller cam which should make it worse. I don't get what is going on it yours unless the the chambers are smaller after the heads were milled than what you stated.
I'm hoping to find out in the next few weeks. I'm starting fresh with a new build and heads. I'll go through my current engine with a fine tooth comb. Wouldn't it be something if the machine shop milled the heads too much?

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post #24 of 50 Old 03-17-2017, 08:20 PM
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Interesting... Consider me as another data point:

347, AFR heads, Ed cam (similar specs, less exhaust duration). I can only run 23ish degrees at peak torque heat soaked before she knocks. Like peppers the spark plugs knocks...

Everything has been triple checked. Makes very good mid-range power. Never been on dyno, so I've just lived with low spark advance.

Also considered methanol injection...
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post #25 of 50 Old 03-17-2017, 08:32 PM Thread Starter
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Interesting... Consider me as another data point:

347, AFR heads, Ed cam (similar specs, less exhaust duration). I can only run 23ish degrees at peak torque heat soaked before she knocks. Like peppers the spark plugs knocks...

Everything has been triple checked. Makes very good mid-range power. Never been on dyno, so I've just lived with low spark advance.

Also considered methanol injection...
I'm also at 23* total and get peppering on the plugs. My engine heat soaks quickly and has always ran on the warm side. I revised the whole cooling system thinking that was the cure. I was wrong.
Is your air filter in the engine bay? Are you located in a hot climate?

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post #26 of 50 Old 03-17-2017, 08:47 PM
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I am in SC, so mid to high 90*F in the summer.

Mine seems to be more engine temp sensitive. It will take more timing at 180* coolant temp. By 195* coolant temp you really have to pull timing.

Filter was in engine bay. I fabed up a heat shield out of a 2000s F150 air box. Worked out real slick, no change to knock.

Because mine seemed to be coolant temp related, I considered a better pump (Edelbrock Victor) to circulate coolant faster... Maybe your experience says that's the wrong tree. Rather stick with 195* thermostat as it's a daily driver.

Big bore, good cylinder filling, and relatively low piston speeds near TDC (4000 RPM peak torque) is a recipe for knock. Not sure if that's a compliment or ding on Ed's cam... That's why I was considering meth...
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post #27 of 50 Old 03-17-2017, 08:51 PM
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I am essentially running the '95R sealevel spark table now. Probably giving up some power, but don't have to worry about detonation nearly as much.
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I am in SC, so mid to high 90*F in the summer.

Mine seems to be more engine temp sensitive. It will take more timing at 180* coolant temp. By 195* coolant temp you really have to pull timing.

Filter was in engine bay. I fabed up a heat shield out of a 2000s F150 air box. Worked out real slick, no change to knock.

Because mine seemed to be coolant temp related, I considered a better pump (Edelbrock Victor) to circulate coolant faster... Maybe your experience says that's the wrong tree. Rather stick with 195* thermostat as it's a daily driver.

Big bore, good cylinder filling, and relatively low piston speeds near TDC (4000 RPM peak torque) is a recipe for knock. Not sure if that's a compliment or ding on Ed's cam... That's why I was considering meth...
My engine will ping in the cooler weather as well here. ECT and ACT pull timing quite an amount here in the summer as well. I even swapped in a 5 speed thinking less load would be placed on the engine. I also run a 195* T-stat. I installed a high flow one along with a high flow Flowkooler water pump. I run Contour dual fans on high speed only. Are our engines just that efficient? My power drops like a rock above 5750 rpm.

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post #29 of 50 Old 03-18-2017, 08:03 AM
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Are our engines just that efficient? My power drops like a rock above 5750 rpm.
If you substantially down on power resulting from running low spark advance, something seems odd. If it is just really good cylinder filling, I'd expect similar power to other combos, just with much less advance.

Do you have a dyno graph you can post up?

My motor noses over hard after 5500 as well. But "feels" really strong thru mid-range, even with low timing....
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Dyno run with AODE. Had to start the run at around 4k rpm due to the auto wanting to shift down.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 347 Dyno Run.jpg (47.9 KB, 21 views)

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post #31 of 50 Old 03-18-2017, 03:35 PM
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Hmm, peak power is down and the torque curve is way off from where I would expect it... I'll try to dig up my engine analyzer results of my build and compare torque curve. I haven't had this motor on the dyno, but my last motor was nearly perfect overlay with EA results.

I just took mine down the 1/8th mile for first time ever in this car (first time for me in 13 years...). 300lb coilovers, torque arm, full weight. I was expecting more MPH

Best run: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8t...w?usp=drivesdk
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Hmm, peak power is down and the torque curve is way off from where I would expect it... I'll try to dig up my engine analyzer results of my build and compare torque curve. I haven't had this motor on the dyno, but my last motor was nearly perfect overlay with EA results.

I just took mine down the 1/8th mile for first time ever in this car (first time for me in 13 years...). 300lb coilovers, torque arm, full weight. I was expecting more MPH

Best run: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8t...w?usp=drivesdk
I suspect my torque numbers are a function of either the converter or tranny tune. Possibly both?

I've never played with an EA but always wished to plug my numbers in.

Get those 60 ft times lowered considerably and she might impress you. What rpm where you at when you went through the traps? Did she ping?

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post #33 of 50 Old 03-18-2017, 05:04 PM
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What rpm where you at when you went through the traps? Did she ping?
Maybe 5300 rpm in 3rd.

24* advance. 75*F ambient...What do you think?: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8t...w?usp=drivesdk
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post #34 of 50 Old 03-18-2017, 06:07 PM Thread Starter
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That looks all too familiar. Are you sucking oil through intake from the pcv?

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post #35 of 50 Old 03-18-2017, 06:55 PM
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I have a Mann Provent 200 on PCV. Supposed to be one of the best... Maybe for a diesel where it is filtering positive crankcase pressure. I am not all that impressed with it plumbed on vacuum side of PCV.

Motor does consume some oil, but much less than my old 306 that never knocked and made 330rwhp
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