since i have a bone stock 302 in my fox. Am i wrong in any way to think that instead of buying a power pipe, elbow, 75/90mm MAF. Injectors, upper intake and spend money for a tune on stock computer that I would be better off with holleys new terminator stealth EFI kit?
With 950 cfm im sure that would support a 408 with 11r 205 heads right?
If the terminator stealth is in your budget, why not go with the HP EFI multiport setup? It would give you the same tune-abiltiy as the stealth, would allow the use of a 4150 throttle body and would maintain your sequential injection.
My budget wasn't quite as liberal, so I wen't with the FiTech setup. I haven't yet had a chance to run it, but reviews are nearly all positive...save for a hiccup or two with their command center (which doesn't apply to us). Fit and finish on the unit appears excellent. My build is a 408w with 11R190 heads (budget) and a 2924 super vic intake. Hoping to lay down close to 500 rwhp.
If you can swing it, I would go at least hp efi and work in a 4500 tb. The 1350cfm 4150 accufab piece seems to be a little bit of a restriction on my setup. But it still works fine.
The terminator setup would definitely be restrictive on a big inch Windsor.
Without knowing more, I don't think that can be determined. There are plenty of 750-850 carbs running around on big inch Windsors that would not be considered restrictive. The cam, operating RPM, wet vs dry intake etc. all factor into the equation.
Also, keep in mind that carbs and TBIs use 1.5 in HG depression. This may not be the case for all throttle bodies that may use 28 inches of water. A 1200 CFM throttle body measured at 28 inches of water gets dropped down into the low 1000 range when converted to 1.5 in of HG.
I’m not trying to derail this thread…I just don’t think you can say for sure that the terminator stealth would be restrictive.
With that said,
If I had the budget, I would have went with the Holley HP and a 4150 throttle body.
Cant compare CFM carb ratings to throttle bodies. Its not the same, you cant go too big on a throttle body. 4150 will be too small on a 400+ inch engine. It it runs anything much more than 6000rpms it will want more throttle body.
The terminator stealth flows 950 cfm. The 4150 flows.. 950 cfm. Why would i buy a carberator that flows 950 cfm when i can get the stealth efi that flows 950 cfm amd get self tuning efi system?
i guess what i am asking is. If i dont want to go to a real carb setup. Does anyone here think the stealth terminator efi system would work for my build? If not, which self tuning efi system for 100% street? There are many hp efi systems.
The terminator stealth flows 950 cfm. The 4150 flows.. 950 cfm. Why would i buy a carberator that flows 950 cfm when i can get the stealth efi that flows 950 cfm amd get self tuning efi system?
i guess what i am asking is. If i dont want to go to a real carb setup. Does anyone here think the stealth terminator efi system would work for my build? If not, which self tuning efi system for 100% street? There are many hp efi systems.
I have similar combo with a touch more stroke. I have a dual quad edelbrock with FiTech dual quad EFI. THE FiTech dual quad is supposed to flow 17-1800 cfm. I'm doing a "home" port job to the edelbrock manifold mainly to add volume and port match. No idea of power level as mine is still in the stand but I've got a number in mind. I've got same heads and similar cam as you. FiTech dual quad is supposed to be good to 1200hp for $1999. Got mine for $1700. I'd b happy with less than half that hp.
I don't think anyone suggested you go with a carb, just a comparison of air flow.
The Terminator stealth should work fine for your setup.
If you are stuck on Holley, they are coming out with the avenger later this year to compete with FiTech's offerings.
You have a lot of options. Holley, Fast, MSD and FiTech all make throttle body injection systems.
I have the FiTech go EFI 4 power adder. The 600hp limit makes it worthless for forced induction on my setup, but I believe it will control a nitrous wet kit. Truth be told, I won't be making over 600hp NA on my setup...so It's a good fit for me. Also, the power adder allows timing control, dual fan control, and AC idle kick up.
The next step up is the go EFI 8 which does everything the 4 does...but with 8 injectors, increasing the limit to 1200hp.
In-between is the meanstreet which ditches timing control, but is fuel limited at 800hp. The price is more on par with the go efi 4 power adder.
Also worth mentioning, FiTech will be releasing a sequential system this year that uses a 4150 throttle body with onboard computer. Pricing is on their website, but I believe it's in the $1700-$1800 range including the throttle body, injectors, intake manifold, sensors etc.
The thing that i like the least about a system like that is you are stuck with a 4150 flange for as long as you run that system. No room for improvement.
If it's already EFI, any of the Victor EFI manifolds will do the job, you can reuse your existing rails with some minor mods, just need larger injectors, exhaust, etc. Tuning the EEC-IV is cheap and easy, not to mention quite a bit of fun.
I am already EFI and Bone stock. I figured a tbi system would pay for itself seing as how i will not need a pipe, maf, injectors, upper intake, elbow drive across state to get a tune..
I want maximum efficiency and do not want to starve this motor. Its n/a only and perhaps a hint of spray down the line. The hp efi systems looks promising however can somebody help me justify the cost over a tbi setup please?
TBI will be a huge step backwards in terms of efficiency. There is a reason you don't see TBI systems in OEMs anymore. I would purchase an Edelbrock or Trickflow 351W intake system, upgrade your TB, MAF, injectors, and of course your headers (which you will have to do anyway), and then talk to Decipha about one of his online tunes to get your initial tune and engine running well. You may need to upgrade your fuel pump if you step up to a 351W stroker.
Keep in mind that the '95 Cobra R came with a 351W from the factory, and that tune, which is a CBAZA ZA0 calibration can be used as a basis for a lot of stuff.
Well Mr. Shaker I think think the terms "huge" and "efficiency" in the context you used them is better described as having origins at the school of "marketing" than the school of engineering. My point is those terms would need definition before you can support your claim. Does port and direct have advantages? Yes I agree, but in the hot rodding world 99% won't see the advantage. You are not the only engineer around these parts smarty pants.
Well, Mr. VertVert, someone clearly has a chip on their shoulder. Why don't you try using the search engine? The question was about efficiency, and in that context, TBI is the worst option. Do what you want with your engine, you're the only one that cares, but don't go promoting 50 year old technology as being more efficient than newer more evolved tech. You some kind of TBI lover? Maybe a GM guy? :barf:
I have a 347 stroker with trick flow heads, stage 1 cam, and an air gap intake, car had a carb on it when I got it, but mine is for street use only, I am not interested in a high dollar EFI set up there for I am going with the FI tech, I have not installed it yet, I am in line to get it, they currently have a 100.00 USD rebate, and for 1040.00 USD, that includes there pump, cant go wrong, and yes the reviews are great, the team there use to be OE engineers, give them a look http://fitechefi.com/ this system is about what you would pay for a great carb set up, I did however build my own fuel lines system, because the car I got had only a low pressure fuel line, so I installed some PFE teflon steel braided lines, 8an for supply and return, works great with my Quick Fuel 650, should hook right up to my FItech as i engineered the system for EFI in the future because I knew I was going to go this route. the best would be a MPI system, but hell for 1k cant go wrong and again mine is simply a retired drag car that is now only on the street, so I am after drive ability, so MPI is for now out of my budget, and wont make a huge difference for me. Now if you are going to go to the track and want to squeeze every bit of HP out of it then go ahead and spend 4k on a good MPI set up, BTW, FItech has units for boost as well, will set you back an extra 200.00 USD, just in case you want to add a super charger or gas in the future. > most of all just enjoy the ride!!
BTW they plan a MPI system in the near future for under 2K.
Fair enough. The OP stated that he has the stock MPFI setup on the car, so I figured it would be easier to upgrade that since the majority of the infrastructure is pre-existing, but maybe not if you can't find used pieces.
Thanks guys. I really do appreciate everybodys input here, I really do!
Now since my car will be 100% daily driven it seems like the cheaper TBI system would do just fine and keep maintenance & cost to a minimum.
However, If i did go TBI wit fitech, would anybody reccomend a different system other than their EFI 8 power adder plus system? perhaps a double 4bbl for flow?
Just to recap.. its a ford strokers 408 with FTI street cam + 205 heads @ 10.3 compression. with the small possibility of less than 200 shot of gas by next summer just for the fun of it.
For me it comes down to price, because they all use the same sensors and Bosch O2 sensor. All sensors are over the counter GM stuff. Not expensive at all to replace. And of course options, such as boost and timing control.
The difference is the wiring package, which O2 sensor (can be had with the Bosch or the NTK), or if you want to buy the entire package with their TB and fuel rails.
you can buy 42lb injectors from a loghtning or harley truck for $150 used, or if you want to go turbo or nitrous down the line you can get the siemens deka 80s brand new for $360
You can hit up the u pull it and snatch a slot maf off any 2005+ ford and toss it in a 4" pipe, or of youd rather not you can buy it off ebay from massair4u for $16
then lastly you can buy a quarterhorse from moates.net, the custom tuning software and even a base tune are free downloads on my website
your only looking $400 and after your done tuning you can write your tune to a chip and tune an unlimited number of other vehicles
$150 used injectors
Upper and lower intake - $ 700 ish new / $500 used
throttle body $350
fuel pump - $200
fuel rails - $200
fuel pressure regulator $100
Wideband - $200
Tune / Quarterhouse - $250
2005+ pull apart MAf going to support a full build n/a 408w?
Total: $2,150
Fitech:
includes everything above + boost controller $1,500
Why would we all NOT do that ?
because my fox is bone stock and I do not have a collection of these parts it makes sense to me in particular, I get that. however does anybody here think this would be a bad idea because of xxx? Example: TBI sucks, gas mileage will suck, you will lose 5,000 hp ect..
TBI is a waste of money. If you want to save money stay with a carb. But buy a good carb, like Quick Fuel or Pro Systems. Those will hands down work better than any TBI set up for less money. You want EFI? Do it right, buy a Holley or Fast XFI system that does it all. A TBI is not "electronic fuel injection" all it is, is an electronic pissing of fuel into a carburetor intake manifold plenum. Can not really call that EFI and be serious.
Edit: when push comes to shove, EFI is superior in so many ways. With a proper system, not only do you get sequential fuel injection, you also get massive control over ignition events, like cylinder to cylinder ignition timing. Instead of having to time the whole engine to the one cylinder that "pings" or "detonates" one can pull back the timing on just that one cylinder and let the others work to the optimum. EFI can adjust on the fly, if the air density or temperature changes, the system can make adjustments to optimize for the density altitude ect. All without having to do a thing. Want a 2 step? just turn it on, want to limit rpm by fuel, sure, want to limit rpm with spark, no problem. Want fuel cut off on decel for fuel efficiency, no problem. The list goes on.
TBI is a waste of money. If you want to save money stay with a carb. But buy a good carb, like Quick Fuel or Pro Systems. Those will hands down work better than any TBI set up for less money.\
Easy there cowboy. "Work better than any TBI set up" for what exactly? A well setup carb compared to a well setup throttle body should give nearly the exact same horsepower and torque output...there is nothing magical about either. There may be a case or two where a TBI may not be big enough....but for most of us, this is a non-issue.
If we are talking about a daily driver, a carb can't hold a candle to any electronic fuel injection system (including a TBI). Cold starts, idle, stop and go traffic, elevation changes, fuel economy....all areas where carbs fall flat compared to their electronic brethren.
I'd also argue the monetary value. A FiTech unit is damn close in cost to a higher end carb. The only extras you need are a larger fuel pump and soft lines to connect the FiTech to the chassis. The more I think about it, with as many options available today....the only reason TO run a carb is for straight up racing...and even in that scenario, the cons outweigh the pros.
There is a reason that there are so many people converting their classic cars over to TBI from carbs. I see new posts in forums and youtube everyday documenting it...they are seeking out that daily drive-ability that the carbs just can't give them compared to newer vehicles.
After buying and using the Holley HP, I'd never go back to stock EFI or to ANY system that is not sequential port injection. I could have save thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours if would have just done the Holley HP to start with.
I'm running a super vic EFI and easily make over 1200 at the back tires with a 363 using a T4 turbo and the car drives nice.
im on the complete other side of the spectrum, after frying a brand new $1000 holley ecu the first time it was cranked and being told they dont repair them to buy another i completely turned them out, yes it was our fault for having the battery charger hooked up to the battery and as they said its specifically written in their manual id much rather an ecu thats durable enough to widthstand a jump start
in any case, i think your prices are a little high
I think your prices are a little low.
New EFI super vics are $427…they have gone way up in recent months. The non efi version is $380. Both are cheaper used, however…the 2924 non efi version can be found for much cheaper (I just picked mine up on ebay for $190 shipped.
Also, I’d be curious what new throttle body you are going to find for $125 that is going to flow enough for that super vic. If it is a single blade, I would hope it has a cam on it to maintain some type of progressive actuation. Keep in mind too, many of us would prefer to use a 4150 throttle body to fit the super vic…in which case, that is an easy $350+….and would require an aftermarket ECU.
Fuel rail price is low too…it’s my understanding that you need to use edelbrocks fuel rails to fit the super victor, as standard rails won’t work. Those are in the $120 range. Don’t forget the adaptor fittings to attach the soft lines to the rails….and while you are at it, should probably replace those soft lines anyways.
The biggest downside of what you have listed for many of us is….the manual tune. This is the biggest benefit of all of the aftermarket systems out today. While they may not be perfect, they give you the ability to not have to tinker with the tune nearly as much. They don’t require you to bring a laptop with you everytime you go out for a drive.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying your method is wrong…it was obviously the right choice for you. The cons however IMHO are one of the largest deal-breakers (for me).
That is a good point, i would rather stick with a good carb than go TBI. Also, people saying how cheap the cost of the FItech is, what are you using for ignition? Does it come with that system or is that added expense? The HP box has outputs for the ignition that could light methanol off.
Carbs have had years to perfect design and have had some of the smartest people in the racing world develop them. TBI had a short run on a crappy EFI system and was ditched by the OEMs and is now used as a, thats good enough for me rational. The best guys arent working on their development, because the best guys dont use them. The people that use them are guys who want the easy way out and dont care if they perform sub par because the product was cheap and "i can upgrade to something better later"
I have a friend with a pro systems dominator, i have personally driven on 2, 1000+ mile roadtrips, and watched that car race 10 days out of those 1000 mile trips, weather ranging from 90's and humid, to 70's and dry and never saw him change a jet. If i wanted to be technologically limited i would rather use a carburetor than a poorly designed EFI system.
Fair enough...however, what dictates a poorly designed EFI system?
Everyone has a "that's good enough" budget. If One is trying to squeak out every last ounce of performance from a system...your budget better be bigger.
As it stands, there are plenty of dyno shootouts comparing carbs to TBI systems where the TBIs hold their own. They also offer far superior daily driver abilities. Figuring out how many times to pump the throttle before starting (depending on weather) may not be a big deal to some...but to others it can be a deal breaker. Do you regularly drive through fairly large elevation changes? That also can be a deal breaker. The increased city fuel economy is also very much welcomed.
The fact that there are quite a few TBI being released lately in a price point that competes with higher end carbs shows that there is a significant demand. In the past, people settled for carbs because upgrading to fuel injection was a large investment...and often meant they ruined the clean look of a single large air filter atop of their engine. It just so happens that now that companies have been investing time and money into TBI systems, the hardware and software has grown by leaps and bounds.
IMHO, it gives you the best of both worlds. Daily driveability and fuel economy (somewhat) of fuel injection, classic good looks of a carb, performance comparable to both.
Again, my opinion.
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