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Old 07-31-2002, 04:50 PM   #1
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408 Build up - Max HP on pump gas?

Hello,
Im building a carbed 408W. I was wondering what the highest HP NA 408Ws yall have seen that run on pump gas... so like 10.5:1 or below with a 7800max rpm. I have a fair ammount of cash to spend and would like to go all out. Dart block, possibly billett internals, stage 3 heads. I would like to see solid roller AND hydrolic roller engines. I plan to use a lot of nitrous with it too (i know when on nitrous it will need race gas but it will be driven some on the street so pump gas is needed for reg use). I dont have to worry about any kind of emmisions since this is going in a 67. What are yalls recommendations/build ups etc? Thanks!

Mathew
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Old 07-31-2002, 07:22 PM   #2
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Old 07-31-2002, 07:24 PM   #3
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Question is how much time you want to spend on the street with it, not necessarily how much power. If you go with a big solid roller (like mine or bigger) you will have to use springs that will wear out relatively quick, like in 10k miles. If you go with a more streetable solid roller, you should be able to let it live for a while. Your best bet is going to be a big head, like a tfs R, victor (not jr), matched with a super vic intake, 2" headers, etc. You should be able to be in the 600rwhp range if you do it right with a solid roller.
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Old 07-31-2002, 08:30 PM   #4
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I would prefer to be semi streetable thats why i am looking at hydrolic roller... i dont wanna have to change the lifters every 5-10K miles. But if its a really good solid roller setup then i might use it.

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Old 07-31-2002, 10:21 PM   #5
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351 rpm heads ( ported) 11.1comp. 93 octane
vic jr. intake 750cfm d.p.
radical solid lift crower cam (spects n/a)

this combo is streetable but not like EFI

this motor is in a lincoln mark vII with a tremic i kill mustangs modified and even supercharged.

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Old 08-05-2002, 03:14 PM   #6
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Any other replies? Here is what I was thinking: stage 3 trick flow high ports, very large custom hydrolic roller (upto 7000rpm), probably super victor intake. Also what are everyones opinions on carb vs EFI? I love the simplicity of a carb but efi could really help in streetability. I was thinking whats the spider intake like? If its not too great probably just convert a victor to efi. The other reason I like efi is if i want to add a supercharger or turbo it would be a lot easier then a carb. Thanks for everyones opinions!

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Old 08-05-2002, 04:06 PM   #7
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I built a 408 that can run on pump gas...

Holley 950HP
Vic Jr intake
11.2:1 compression
AFR205s cleaned up by Ed C
242/250 .576/.577 Hydro roller
1 3/4 to 1 7/8" stepped headers

568hp at 6300
535lbft at 4900
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Old 08-05-2002, 04:34 PM   #8
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Chilli Nice setup... unforunately i cant run 11 or higher... here in houston 10.5:1 is pushing almost past the very limit. I also would like something that would spin to 7000 and make closer to 600HP. Thanks!

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Old 08-05-2002, 04:54 PM   #9
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I have 11-1 408 in houston and have no problems.
Try to get that thing to 7000 RPM with 3" mains and your not going to be on the street a whole lot. What size mains does the block have?
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Old 08-05-2002, 05:00 PM   #10
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Lightbulb

how about a big block? I'd like a 67 with a big block and efi some day....
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Old 08-05-2002, 05:05 PM   #11
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The block has 2.75in mains and 9.503 desk height. Its like a cleveland windsor mix.. Longer stroke of a windsor mains of a cleveland.
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Old 08-05-2002, 05:33 PM   #12
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600rwhp really possible????
I will be starting the same project a few months from now and would love to see 600rwhp. thats flying in a 2800lb car. You could see low to mid 10's in that.
Crazy sweet
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Old 08-05-2002, 05:37 PM   #13
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I was mostly talked flywheel HP... but 600RW would be amazing but not likely.
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Old 08-05-2002, 05:44 PM   #14
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you can always get some alluminum rods and spin that sucker to 7000 with no problem
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Old 08-05-2002, 05:55 PM   #15
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Are you looking for cam suggestions? Heads? Intake Q's?

Do you already have the high ports?

Realistically Chilly has a nice combo, unless you're looking to spend a lot of time on the dyno and tweaking things the extra 30 or 40 hp will more than likely have to be found with a healthy solid roller and port/epoxy/matching work. Ed turns out some nice cams, you can go bigger but weather or not it's going to meet your goals is another story.

$.02

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Old 08-05-2002, 06:23 PM   #16
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check this out for a cheap power package.

http://www.trickflow.com/articles/featured_index.htm

393 good for 529hp and 472ft/lbs

no head work and a very very streetable cam. can anyone say easy!
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Old 08-05-2002, 06:38 PM   #17
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Eagle,
Im looking at recommendations for everything. I dont have the high ports yet. I would like recommendations on heads,intakes,cams,you name it. I originally posted to see if anyone out there had a 600+ HP NA semi streetable 408 running on pump gas.

Thanks!
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Old 08-05-2002, 06:48 PM   #18
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I'm building a 408 that I'm hoping to hit around 600hp+ with, n/a.

Eagle forged crank
Eagle forged rods
Arias custom nitrous pistons (10.8:1)
TFS-R Heads (box stock)
Super Victor intake (box stock with 2" carb spacer)
Custom solid roller cam by Ed Curtis (268/276 @ .050 640/650 @ .050 114lsa)
1050cfm custom carb
Girdled/hard blocked bottom end
MSD Small Diameter Pro Billet Distributor
Custom Crower pushrods
Jomar rocker stud girdle
Comp Cams Pro Magnum rockers
Meziere electric water pump
2" Primary headers, 3.5" collector

I should have dyno #s in a month or 2.
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Old 08-06-2002, 09:14 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by jebmust87
you can always get some alluminum rods
Did ya see where he wants to drive it on the street?


I'd go with AFR205s or 225s, or TFS 'R' with some cleanup, a Super Vic intake, and 1-7/8" headers. The rpm you're talking about is possible with a hydraulic roller, though it takes a very well matched setup. With either one though, the size of cam it will take to pull 7000+ rpm is not gonna be too happy at low rpm, especially with mild compression like that. Check with some engine builders like Ed C., with a large cam you might be able to run higher static compression because you'll be bleeding cylinder pressure in the midrange, allowing more compression on a given octane. If you go EFI you can also just pull some timing in the midrange (torque peak is highest cylinder pressure, greatest chance of detonation) with a little higher static compression, which will help carry the power up top.
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Old 08-07-2002, 12:49 AM   #20
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TURBOX2 I really appreciate your post. Very interesting and informative. What do you think the max compression I could run at sea level with a bigger cam? I would like EFI but would it be possible to run a 300shot on an efi car? Thanks for the help!

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Old 08-07-2002, 01:20 AM   #21
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Thumbs up

msolnik,

Compression totally depends on the intake system ram and helmholtz tuning and the intake closing point or another words overall intake cam timing. You can run more static mechanical compression when running longer and/or more retarded cams. You can run more compression when you have more modern detonation resistant chambers like newer heads do. You can also run more compression when you have shorter runner intakes that don't overfill cylinders way down low and cause self-sustaining detonation and pre-ignition to be a problem like the earlier Chevy TPI and Ford Cobra style intakes do. The power you want is totally dependent on what you are satisfied with as far as "streetability" which seems to be a very subjective term. 600 HP NA is a joke nowadays with the stuff we have if you aren't really too budget minded. I have built and am building several engines like those you are talking about for a few guys here in Texas and on the Corral and they will be complete here in the next month or so and should hit the dynos as well.
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Old 08-07-2002, 01:37 AM   #22
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Ok well IMO streetable is doesnt overheat in traffic AND me being able to run the AC .
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Old 08-07-2002, 11:26 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by msolnik
Ok well IMO streetable is doesnt overheat in traffic AND me being able to run the AC .
You want to turn an a/c compressor at 7000+?? Best put a shrapnel shield around it.... It you really want to drive it around with a/c and all I think you best consider revising the plan some, you could spend a lot less on the motor, keep the rpm down (gaining streetability), stick a blower on and make 700hp easily.
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Old 08-07-2002, 11:47 AM   #24
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Heheh, I know spinning to 7K would probably blow the AC unit but i was thinking on the street i didnt need to shift so high.... more in the 6Ks. When at the track disconnect the AC. Think it would work? I really would like to stay NA (with nitrous when needed).

Thanks!
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Old 08-07-2002, 04:31 PM   #25
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You could just turn the AC off.
I think most people do that when they run anyway.
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Old 08-07-2002, 05:00 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mustang Brad
You could just turn the AC off.
I think most people do that when they run anyway.
Turning it off doesn't matter as it cuts out at WOT anyway, but you're still spinning parts of it that were never designed for that rpm.
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Old 08-07-2002, 05:20 PM   #27
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Well i was thinking when running it hard to totally disconnect the belt to the AC (would this work?). Thanks for everyone help!
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Old 08-07-2002, 05:28 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by msolnik
Well i was thinking when running it hard to totally disconnect the belt to the AC (would this work?). Thanks for everyone help!
LOL, thats a great plan just as long as you can make yourself lift early when you're playing with somebody on the street and they aren't dropping back like you thought they would.....foot will be on floor, guaranteed....
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Old 08-07-2002, 05:31 PM   #29
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hehe good point... Ok possibly time to look at FI. I really like the concept of turbos... being able to adjust boost sounds pretty cool. High HP when i need it and less when i drive on the street. Whats your opinion? What should i look at etc etc. I dont know jack about turbo charging.
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Old 08-07-2002, 05:52 PM   #30
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Well, thats a whole different story.... Turbos are awesome for street cars IMO because you can turn the boost down to whatever level you want, you can run a small cam that gives smooth drivability, and you can make insane amounts of hp/tq while keeping rpm down to 6k or a little more, which aids in the life of everything involved. I wouldn't turbo a 408 though (maybe for track use with big slicks and a Powerglide), on the street it would make pretty much unusable torque and be hard to keep a tranny alive behind it. I'd stick to a 302 based motor, which would also help fit it into a 67 as I don't know what kind of clearance they have between the shock towers??

Whats more important, all out power or being able to drive it on the street? I looked back and you started at 600 flywheel, but then folks kinda turned it into 600 rwhp. If your goal was 600hp flywheel on the motor you could do it easily with a 408 and keep it streetable, then spray it at the track. I was looking more at the type of rpm you were saying you wanted to turn, I think you could keep it to 6500 and still make 600 flywheel hp, and accesories should live with an underdrive crank pulley. 600 in a light car would put you in the high 9s n/a with a proper chassis, the times in my sig. were run at right about 600 (flywheel) but at 3350 lbs.

Yes, I am kinda going backwards there , but as this thread has wandered just want to firm up what the really important parts of your goals are...
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Old 08-07-2002, 07:15 PM   #31
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Well my goal is to have 600+ flywheel HP. I would like it to run on pump gas (race gas is OK at the track), be able to run my ac on the street. I would prefer to have this on a 408W NA (if it makes power to 6000RPM or 7000rpm i dont care... i just want the 600HP). I would like to stick with the 408 even if i twin turbo... kinda wanna do something different. As for engine compartment space i will have tons even if i run a 460... I am doing the mustang 2 front end mod which totally rips out the shock towers. My overall goal would be to have 600HP NA then run a upto 300-350 shot at the track (using race gas). If i go turbo i would like to make a lot more then 600HP at full boost. I could easily make mid 500s and still be streetable on the 408 then with some major boost intercooled and all i would like to push 900? 1000? (if this will need race gas at the track thats fine). All opinions appreaciated! Thanks

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Old 08-08-2002, 03:54 PM   #32
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Also as a follow up question... is it better to go with 2 smaller turbos or 1 BIG turbo? Thanks!

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Old 08-08-2002, 04:33 PM   #33
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After you save the $15,000 to do all this, start a new post on which route to go.
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Old 08-08-2002, 05:44 PM   #34
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Well im not sure if i wan the bigger 408 and nitrous of the twin turbo... i would like to see a responce from turbo see what he says is obtainable and still semi streetable...

Mathew
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Old 08-08-2002, 06:02 PM   #35
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LOL, you'll have to look further than me to get accurate answers on that one... I've never built/owned such a motor so I'm only giving opinions on such a setup. Number one, before you go planning on 1000 hp sit and figure out the total cost and whether or not its actually feasible... Fuel system? Better set aside $1800 or so... Tranny? Forget any stickshift made (short of a Jericho or Liberty), or a C4 for that matter. I think you'd be pretty much into a Powerglide, and about $3500 total for that setup. Turbo kit likely around $5000, motor around $10,000.... Thats 20k already, still interested? Gonna need a few thousand into the chassis/cage to make it somewhat safe and able to harness that kind of power, you're talking about a 9.0 or better car now so there's no cheap way to do it.

Ok, to answer your question (somewhat). A 408 built for turbo use as you would describe would likely be around 8.8:1 and capable of maybe 460? hp on the motor (turbo grind cam). Add around 5-6 psi for street use and I'd guess you'd be at 600-650. Gonna probably have to run around 15 psi for 900. I think the motor could be quite streetable, but the tranny is something else. Building something that will stand up to that much torque is gonna be a tough proposition, and it likely would be something more fit for getting around the pits and down the track than taking it out for a cruise.

Like I said, if you're serious, you need to talk to somebody who builds this kind of stuff....
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