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Old 07-10-2002, 03:08 AM   #1
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Roush 180/200 heads...any good????

I have seen the Roush heads in summit for pretty cheap....what is everyones experience and knowledge of them?

thanks
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Old 07-10-2002, 03:03 PM   #2
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do either of these heads compare to the afr 185/205 heads or any other heads on the market...besides being iron instead of aluminum...thanks!
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Old 07-10-2002, 03:06 PM   #3
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Are the Roush heads aluminum? I thought that they are Iron.
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Old 07-10-2002, 03:11 PM   #4
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they are iron...I was wanting a comparison to other heads....excluding that the roush heads are iron and most others are aluminum...does the material matter besides the weight savings?
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Old 07-10-2002, 03:14 PM   #5
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I remember reading something about them in either MM&FF or 5.0 a couple of months back, might want to check the old issues.

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Old 07-10-2002, 03:15 PM   #6
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I know that they aren't that cheap. For less than a few hundred more you can get an afr cnc ported head that will weigh a lot less and flow way better, I do not belive they are worth the money brand new. Unless you get a good deal on them used, then they might be worth it. just my .02
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Old 07-10-2002, 03:20 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ishman 306
does the material matter besides the weight savings?
Yes, aluminum absorbs a little bit of detonation.
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Old 07-10-2002, 03:23 PM   #8
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I found in summit they are $795 for either the 180 or 200...that comes complete not bare...the afr's start at 1300....would it be worthe the extra $500 to get the afr's? anyones eles opinion on them...and can someone tell me the issue of 5.0 or MM&FF they did an article on the roush heads?

thanks!
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Old 07-10-2002, 03:24 PM   #9
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It also helps cool a lot better, it gives off a lot more heat than iron. And the idea about warping aluminum heads is only true if you rapidly cool the motor, if ya get it a bit hot just let it cool down naturally, dont hose it down or anything.
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Old 07-10-2002, 03:33 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ishman 306
I found in summit they are $795 for either the 180 or 200...that comes complete not bare...the afr's start at 1300....would it be worthe the extra $500 to get the afr's? anyones eles opinion on them...and can someone tell me the issue of 5.0 or MM&FF they did an article on the roush heads?

thanks!
From what I've heard the Roush heads are great for what you pay for them. I've heard very little about them, but for what they cost I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about them. From what I can understand that are actually World heads with Roush's name on them.

Does anyone know of any clearance problems with the 200's on a a stock shortblock?
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Old 07-10-2002, 04:27 PM   #11
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roush

I've heard they are pretty good flowing heads..
somebody mentioned they are 795 from summit..why
not get a set of TFS heads for 200 bucks more.
AFR's are great heads but didn't outflow TFS heads
by that much. TFS heads are the best flowing head
for the money out of the box IMO..995 for a set with 3/8 studs for rockers..
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Old 07-10-2002, 05:14 PM   #12
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Re: roush

Quote:
Originally posted by rocket398
I've heard they are pretty good flowing heads..
somebody mentioned they are 795 from summit..why
not get a set of TFS heads for 200 bucks more.
AFR's are great heads but didn't outflow TFS heads
by that much. TFS heads are the best flowing head
for the money out of the box IMO..995 for a set with 3/8 studs for rockers..
then you have to worry about the ****ty guides going out

edlebrock perfomers
$995 assembled
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Old 07-10-2002, 07:06 PM   #13
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When considering a cylinder head purchase, it is EXTREMELY
important that you are completely honest with yourself ,
as to what you intend to do with the car .

Is it a street car only ?

Is it a street / strip effort ?

Pure race car ?

What ?

This is critical , because cylinder heads are designed to some
things very well ,but, not all things .

Race heads on a street car , and street heads on a race car
usually give lackluster results . For opposite reasons .

IMHO , the most widely misunderstood , and promoted ,cylinder
head feature , are the flow numbers .

The most under explained / promoted feature is velocity .

Yes , I know , buy the ones with the biggest flow numbers , right ?
Wrong .

To get the best results , you really have to determine what you
want to do with the car , and what rpm range you want to
maximize the power .

For the street , velocity is king . So , look for a blend of good
flow numbers , but , with a small intake port / valve .
For the most part , the larger the port , the slower the velocity
at any given rpm point .
The lower the velocity , the lower the mid range torque .

Roush 200 heads are a very good head , but with a very large
200cc port . This kills the velocity at low and mid rpm ( and the
torque along with it ) . At high rpm ( or with added displacement ),
they are great . But , on the street , by the time you get to a high enough rpm ,the race is already over .

That is why it is very important to do your homework before hand
if you are going to send a set of heads out to be ported .

The ultimate secret , is to improve the flow numbers , but do it by
removing as little material as possible . Some guys just grind the
port bigger . Bigger port , better flow numbers on the flow bench
but give a reduction in velocity , and the car accellerates slower .
Shape of the port is just as important as size .
It takes a pro porter to do it right .

Always remember , we do not drive a flow bench ( or a dyno ) , we drive cars . Numbers on a flow bench can be VERY misleading .

For the record , I currently use a set of ( old tech ) GT40 iron
heads with 1.94 / 1.6 valves . They flowed ( only ) 210 / 165 .
Crappy by comparison to todays 250+ cfm heads .

But these heads made 370hp @ 5500 rpm on the dyno
and 360+ lbs of torque as low as 3500 rpm ( peak of 377 @ 4500 ) .

They walked all over a set of Edelbrock RPM 2.02 / 1.6 and
Dart SR 's ( both of which flowed larger numbers on the bench ) .

On the street , the car works awesome . Instant power everywhere ( from 2000 - 6200 ) .

When it comes to heads , bigger is definately not better .
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Old 07-10-2002, 07:37 PM   #14
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Iron heads hold in more heat allowing you to run less compression.Iron does not strip as easy as aluminum threads,will not melt from detonation,Overall the iron heads are stronger all around,but are around 50 lbs heavier per pair.The 2.02 valved 200 cc heads will need the pistons flycut for clearance.


Quote:
Originally posted by sniper
When considering a cylinder head purchase, it is EXTREMELY
important that you are completely honest with yourself ,
as to what you intend to do with the car .

On the street , the car works awesome . Instant power everywhere ( from 2000 - 6200 ) .

When it comes to heads , bigger is definately not better .
I am using ported E7s,an off the shelf TFS #1 cam,a carb and at my last dyno,after putting the car together last September,I put down 256 rwhp using an AOD,with out any tuning on the dyno.Just wanted a baseline.I have added a few more tricks and should be around the 275 or more rwhp mark now.Car averages around 21-22 mpg.

256 rwhp is around 300-310 at the flywheel ,it has a wide power band and the car is streetable enough to drive everyday and does not overheat in bumper to bumper rush hour traffic.
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Old 07-11-2002, 08:44 AM   #15
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What sniper said! Good luck!!! JC
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Old 07-11-2002, 10:16 AM   #16
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Re: Re: roush

then you have to worry about the ****ty guides going out


jd770, TFS corrected that problem..that was on the old style heads..I've had two sets on different
vehicles and no problems
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Old 07-11-2002, 01:39 PM   #17
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do the roush heads have any problems anyone has head about...how would they perform aginst AFR or TFS? does anyone know the month of the 5.0 or MM&FF they did an aritcle in?
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Old 07-11-2002, 03:51 PM   #18
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Simple answer, out of the box they flow pretty bad. Fully worked you can get a lot out of the windsor sr/roush 200. Without porting your looking at a head that flows like a gt40iron, maybe a TAD bit more. But it has more intake volume, and a bigger valve. Save your money and buy some tfs heads if money is an issue. You can get a set for around $700 used in good shape if you look around a bit.
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Old 07-11-2002, 05:13 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by N2O88
Simple answer, out of the box they flow pretty bad. Fully worked you can get a lot out of the windsor sr/roush 200. Without porting your looking at a head that flows like a gt40iron, maybe a TAD bit more. But it has more intake volume, and a bigger valve. Save your money and buy some tfs heads if money is an issue. You can get a set for around $700 used in good shape if you look around a bit.
Is the Windsor Sr. the same exact head as the Roush 200?
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Old 07-11-2002, 05:30 PM   #20
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yes they are pretty much the same head

btw
gt 40s flow 196/129
200s flow 225/155

not excatly close

for comparsion the AFR 185's flow 282/191

200cc intake ports are way to big for a NA Car
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Old 07-11-2002, 08:12 PM   #21
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jd770-

ehh, my bad, going off memory here......my statements are mostly correct though! 25cfm off, I thats a TAD bit more right? Lol. Still way off from other heads available.
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Old 07-11-2002, 08:16 PM   #22
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also fyi the AFR 205s flow 300/200 out of hte box

and the 165s go for ~250/191

stock heads >>>164/114 so anything is an improvement

windsor jrs (roush 180s) are approx 195/154 or about the same as a gt-40
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Old 07-11-2002, 09:01 PM   #23
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Like I said earlier , it really comes down to what you intend
to do with the car . Street , race , whatever .

Also , try not to get too caught up at looking only at the
max lift air flow numbers exclusively . This also can be quite
misleading .Keep in mind that the TOTAL air flow curve , is what really makes a big difference . Always look hard at the low and
mid lift flow numbers , in addition to the max lift numbers .

It is routine to see heads that "only" flow 210 / 165 or so , but with small / high velocity ports AND great low / mid lift flow numbers, make about the same top end power as heads with 250 / 190 flow numbers , that have average low / mid flow numbers and low velocity ports .

But with one BIG difference , a lot more mid range torque .

Keep in mind that the engine only "sees" the high lift flow numbers once per cycle , but "sees" the low / mid lift flow
twice ( on the way up and on the way down ) .
This really matters .

Advertisers tend to focus on big numbers becuase it helps sell
product . Whether it works as advertised in the real world is
another matter .

Remember my GT40 , Performer RPM , Dart Sr. example that I talked about earlier . Both the RPM and Dart heads had measureably more high lift flow numbers than the GT40 ( the
RPM's in particular ) . But on the dyno , this high lift flow did not
really translate into a bunch of additional power like most guys
would think . All three heads made from 350 - 370 hp , but the
GT40's had about 25+ lb's of torque more at every given point .

In the car , that 25+ lb's makes a big difference as to how hard the car accellerates .

Does this mean that the GT40 heads are the best thing going?
Hardly .

The point that I want to make is that big numbers sell heads , but
flow curves win races .
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Old 07-11-2002, 09:14 PM   #24
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Bottom line.....how much power do they make?

Chamber shape a plug location have a lot to do with power output.
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Old 07-12-2002, 01:18 AM   #25
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195 or 200(new Roush) Dart heads are not near as big as they appear. The Dart heads use an intake port length that is nearly 1/2" longer than most of the other heads. and nearly an inch laonger than stock.

While every one is talking about the flow num,bers of the TFS heads, do you realize that the 170cc TFS port is actually shorter than the stock head. So when you compare the TFS to other 170cc style heads you are really looking at a considerably larger cross section. It ought to flow more!!

Someone up above wrote about velocity. Velocity is it!!

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Old 07-12-2002, 07:47 AM   #26
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Please either include your mods on this area or e-mail me your mods, looking to do the same thing you did with your mustang with the ported stock heads and cam. Thanks

Quote:
Originally posted by '84 LTD LX
Iron heads hold in more heat allowing you to run less compression.Iron does not strip as easy as aluminum threads,will not melt from detonation,Overall the iron heads are stronger all around,but are around 50 lbs heavier per pair.The 2.02 valved 200 cc heads will need the pistons flycut for clearance.




I am using ported E7s,an off the shelf TFS #1 cam,a carb and at my last dyno,after putting the car together last September,I put down 256 rwhp using an AOD,with out any tuning on the dyno.Just wanted a baseline.I have added a few more tricks and should be around the 275 or more rwhp mark now.Car averages around 21-22 mpg.

256 rwhp is around 300-310 at the flywheel ,it has a wide power band and the car is streetable enough to drive everyday and does not overheat in bumper to bumper rush hour traffic.
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Old 07-12-2002, 11:08 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scott1966
Please either include your mods on this area or e-mail me your mods, looking to do the same thing you did with your mustang with the ported stock heads and cam. Thanks

Here is my whole combo,pretty simple IMHO.

A stock 1990 forged piston shortblock,90 mustang engine brackets and belt setup,the TFS #1 cam,heads are E7s from www.powerheads.com ,intake is an old school Torker 289 (not the Torker 2),carb is an out of the box # 1406 E-brock with electric choke,stock mechanocal fuel pump for a 1969 Mustang 300 HP 351W 4bbl carb,timing cover of a 1980s carbed 302,single 5/16 fuel line,1985 Mustang carb roller dist,MSD 6AL,MSD Blaster 2F coil,ACCEL wires,cap,rotor and "U" grove spark plugs,underdrive pulleys,MAC 1 5/8 shorties,Flowtech off road pipe,2 1/2 Cherry Bomb turbo mufflers and thats about it.

The AOD is stock,right down to the converter, except for the Performance Auto valvebody,the rear axle is stock part.

Oh,by the way,my engine is in a midsize 4 door LTD LX,my little sleeper.This car is based of the same Fox chassis as the 79-93 Mustangs.

Dyno Sheet

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Old 07-12-2002, 11:52 AM   #28
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That #1406 E-brock, what CFM is it?

Thanks
Quote:
Originally posted by '84 LTD LX


Here is my whole combo,pretty simple IMHO.

A stock 1990 forged piston shortblock,90 mustang engine brackets and belt setup,the TFS #1 cam,heads are E7s from www.powerheads.com ,intake is an old school Torker 289 (not the Torker 2),carb is an out of the box # 1406 E-brock with electric choke,stock mechanocal fuel pump for a 1969 Mustang 300 HP 351W 4bbl carb,timing cover of a 1980s carbed 302,single 5/16 fuel line,1985 Mustang carb roller dist,MSD 6AL,MSD Blaster 2F coil,ACCEL wires,cap,rotor and "U" grove spark plugs,underdrive pulleys,MAC 1 5/8 shorties,Flowtech off road pipe,2 1/2 Cherry Bomb turbo mufflers and thats about it.

The AOD is stock,right down to the converter, except for the Performance Auto valvebody,the rear axle is stock part.

Oh,by the way,my engine is in a midsize 4 door LTD LX,my little sleeper.This car is based of the same Fox chassis as the 79-93 Mustangs.

Dyno Sheet
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Old 07-13-2002, 01:31 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scott1966
That #1406 E-brock, what CFM is it?

Thanks
The carb is a 600 CFM unit.I used an early front cover,2 part fuel pump drive (eccentric) with a stock fuel pump for a 1969 Mustang with the 300 hp 351W 4bbl, I have the initial timing set at 17-18* with the vacuum advance line OFF,and it stays OFF and plugged.I use the mechanical advance in the dist to get the full advance.(The claim is a vacuum advance gives better gas milage,but I have no problem getting 20+ mpg).I checked and its around 32* total.The rocker arms/pushrods are the stock ones.

I had just finished the car shortly before the dyno,I had an 85 5.0 carbed dual snorkle aircleaner with a Fram filter,the choke was misadjusted,and was in need of a few more minor adjustments.

The cam pulls between 15-16 inches of vacuum,car has power brakes,steering and working A/C.I have driven it in ~100*F temps as recent as last week.I am running a 3 core radiatora 180* stat,and the stock clutch fan/shroud combo.
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