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Old 10-26-2010, 09:30 AM   #106
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Bill seems like a good friend to have and know!

I would defintely just use alcohol/meth injection over that crappy CO2 bulb design. They take up like 30% of the tube. Funny enough a good meth system can also drop temps 50 degrees and cool cumbustion even more And increase octane AND reduce EGTs.

So go away cold bulb, you suck,
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Old 10-26-2010, 03:58 PM   #107
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N2O (vaporization temp: -128*) will cool the intake charge more than water/meth injection. Of course, it has other effects also...
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Old 10-26-2010, 05:26 PM   #108
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Posting in an EPIC thread! Nice work!
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Old 10-26-2010, 05:32 PM   #109
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Meth is great when it is only needed at boost say in a centrifical supercharger or turbo, but with an eaton in boost from idle to whatever you going to need to attach a trailer hitch and tow a meth tank around all day.


Probably swap the intake to a vortech cool box upper.
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Old 10-26-2010, 07:32 PM   #110
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Well, I drove it today (there's a crappy cell phone video at the end if you're one of those "premature" types...)(reading that quip makes me sound like more of an ass than I already am - it's not meant in an assy way, I swear).

First, as promised, I made the gaskets and put everything together. Here's how the nipples lined up, adding credence to the adage, "Measure twice, cut once." Or adding credence to some sort of revival involving water, or something...




Dodged one there, I'll tell you. I don't really plan these things out, I just kind of make it up as I go; and little "add ons" like the bypass usually ending up causing a great deal of grief.

I bolted everything together, set the timing at a safe 25 degrees (I forgot how to set the timing; actually, let me re-phrase that - I forgot how to use a timing light - I put the inductive clip on the coil wire at first, and couldn't figure out why the damn thing was blinking so fast.) I didn't have time to flush to cooling system. Then I hit my bull##### "gotcha" - the laptop I use to tune the thing wouldn't boot. Considering it's been at least five years since it's been turned on, it's close to 20 years old, and it's spent a decade in my garage, I can't say I'm really surprised. Disappointed, yes. But not surprised. But I couldn't drive it this way - I needed to richen up the mixture. Also, you'll notice no mention of an idle air control motor. That's one of them fancy lugshury feetures. I'll save that for later (that's why the bypass feed back is offset - I left room for an IAC; but I need to raise the idle in the meantime to compensate).

Anyway, I had to run to Microcenter to pick up a USB to serial adapter to use my current laptop. By the time I got everything hooked up and figured out (you have to use a program called, "DOSBox" and setup the configuration file properly to use the adapter cable) I was running out of time. But first, some pics:


No worky.











And now what you've been waiting for - the first drive. By the time I hit the road, the thing was super heat-soaked. And driving around in rush hour to get to a highway didn't help. Legal disclaimer - my speedo is off; I'm running the wrong gear in the tranny for the 3.73 rear and racing is for dragstrips; this is just "getting to know you." That said, first impressions: tune is a little rough. The blower whine sounds louder than it'll really be due to the hole in the firewall right by the air filter (I didn't put in my little ram air deal yet). But there was no sign of detonation, it pulled like a bat out of hell, and I never even hit 40% throttle opening. I saw a peak of 10 psi this way. At full throttle, I'm thinking I'll see about 12-14 psi. I think I can run more timing and lean out the mixture a bit. But enough of my yapping, here is the (very poor quality) cell phone video:


Now the tweaking begins. And I really have to do that damn paperwork.
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Old 10-27-2010, 09:42 AM   #111
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Very interesting post I would love to see the maiden run at Capital I live just on the other side of 3. If it is still going to happen I would love to stop by and watch let us know if it is going to happen. The weather looks good just a little cool.
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Old 10-27-2010, 11:36 AM   #112
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Do you have anything to retard timing when boost increases?

I'd say 25 degrees might be a little much at 14PSI with no intercooler or injection method. Just don't want you to hurt anything!
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Old 10-27-2010, 04:51 PM   #113
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Oh, HOLY HELL!! That sounds SICK!! Totally worth the price of admission. I hope you have some kind of boost retard for the timing. But either way, I am truly impressed. My wife has a GTP with the M90. It kinda sounds the same, only no where near the volume. Nice work.
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Old 10-27-2010, 06:36 PM   #114
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Just looked at the vid, god damn that is loud!
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Old 10-27-2010, 07:17 PM   #115
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Hehe - it's not really that loud; the mic on the cell phone seems to peak in the blower's frequency spectrum. When I'm just cruising, you don't really hear the blower. But when you get on it, it'll attract some attention. In comparison to the M90 however, this thing is whisper quiet. Steve Bauer over at MMFF described that setup equivalent to sitting "under the wing of an F14." THAT was loud. This, not so much. (In fact, I ran a db meter in the passenger seat just tooling around town with the M90 - it registered 119 db!) In any event, the LTD is horn-deficient. I suppose I could just rev the snot out of the engine to get someone to move (like the moron who decided to park diagonally across Randolph road this afternoon on my way home from work).

MDLX50 - It's actually looking good for this Friday - I might not get there until 7 pm or so. I'll pm you with a question.
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Old 10-27-2010, 07:24 PM   #116
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More vids and pics! I wanna see a dyno run!
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:26 AM   #117
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It's all set for the track tomorrow. Slicks & skinnys are on, camera mount is made and the new harness is installed - the only things I didn't do were flush the cooling system and finish the ram-air doohicky. That said, I did forget to mention the net results of the bypass/heat shield stuff - a 30 degree drop in blower case temps, and now I can actually put my hand on the discharge after it's been idling for a while.

A few points on the harness - it seems that RCI has slicked-up on a few details of their harnesses in the last 10 years - the webbing is more supple and the hardware seems nicer. But there is one change that puzzles me - the submarine strap (i.e. the crotch strap) is now a double strap with two mounting points. I'm not sure why, exactly. I made it work with my single point mount, but now the boys are double-strapped. And nothing says, "I love you" more than having two straps securing your nuts. I guess.


I love you, too, RCI.

I also made about the simplest, cheapest camera mount imaginable - this literally cost me $2.08. For the wing nuts and wing bolt. Remember that u-bolt issue for the blower snout? Well, I found a good use for the u bolt - and some EMT conduit laying around in the garage and some old hoses. All you need to do is drill 3 holes, flatten and bend one end of the conduit, and in my case, I used a leftover scrap of the cork gasket material to provide friction between the mount and the camera. Here it is:




lchauvin88 - I'd love to put up more videos, but I'm gonna wait until tomorrow, when I can do it without fear of any sort of legal fallout (I can't bring myself to drive like an ass on the street anyway). But here's a short clip of a second gear pull (I wanted to try the high rev range). You'll hear it breaks up a bit starting at about 5k. I'm pretty sure I know why - I richened the hell out of it up there. I'll trim it at the track. Looky here:


Finally, I had the (seemingly, at the time) brilliant idea of marking the distributor at the engine block at 25, 30 and 35 degrees; so I wouldn't have to bring the timing light to the track. I made a silver mark on the block and two black marks on the distributor - one at 25 degrees advance and the other at 35 degrees advance. Why not three marks? Well, I'll let you figure it out:


Not so smart, but not completely stupid, either.

Finally, finally - I have a bit of sad news to report. I think I might have to revise my ET/MPH estimates. It turns out that I'm seeing a peak boost level of 10 psi. At WOT I don't get no more. While this blower is basically the same thing that came on the Terminator Cobras, and I'm spinning it much faster than they are, even with smaller blower pulleys, I just don't think I'm gonna see comparable power. At this point, I honestly don't think it feels like a 10 second car. I'm gonna guess 11.27 at 120 mph. But don't be surprised if it performs very close to the M90 (as if that's not close enough - but it might go slower). That doesn't mean it won't get there, it'll just take a bit more tweakage.


Anyone else wanna guess?
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:49 AM   #118
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BTW - no boost retard. My timing is locked out and static compression is very low - I've never gotten this thing to ping (but there's a first time for everything...)
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Old 10-29-2010, 11:58 PM   #119
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Before I even type in one word, I absolutely must give a big, gigantic, "Thank You!" to MDLX50 and his "assistant" for coming out tonight. Without their help, I'd have virtually no media to share. We have some really great corralers around here, folks - I knew I liked you guys for a reason. Thanks Again!

Now, if you're like me, you wanna know how things went. I would consider tonight a success. The folly lies in my own hubris. By that I mean my simplistic thought process of, I'll just bolt this thing on and go 10's. Well, that didn't happen. But I'm confident it will. The problem with my thought process - tuning! I just assumed my existing fuel maps would be close enough. That breakup you her in the other videos reared it's ugly head. In all, we got 3 passes in; the first was the best (somewhat surprising, considering that the slicks had been sitting in my garage collecting dust for quite a few years).

I did a big, hefty burnout and pulled up to the line. I didn't totally lay into the throttle, but kind of rolled into it at a pretty good pace. To my surprise, the thing hooked with a 1.60 60'. But then things got a little wierd almost immediately. The car wasn't pulling smooth. It popped out the exhaust and sputtered. I would call it "moderate to severe" from a tuning perspective. This made throwing shifts a little tricky. I actually short shifted 1-2 because I wasn't sure my shift light still worked (it turns out it did - it's the "lift gate ajar" light on the top of the dash that was only populated with a bulb in the station wagon variant of these cars).

It kind of sputtered and popped through the top of each gear (hopefully MDLX50 will chime in with a more unbiased, outside opinion), but it still turned an 11.53 at 116.12 mph. Though we tried to do some quick staging-lane tuning, time and circumstances were not on our side. My next pass was behind an outlaw car who took a while and something (I'm not sure what) happened to him and one of the track folks had to go pick something up off the track. In that time, the slicks lost their heat, and I spun to a 1.707 60'. The rest of the run was worse, I had a bigger sputtering issue mid track (which caused me to lift) and I ran 12.383 at 113.76. The last pass was stronger, but since the track guy and I were on different wavelengths and I had no idea what he was trying to tell me in the burnout box, I ended up spinning to an even worse 1.771 60' but ran a 12.09 at 114.88.

There you have it. There's definitely 10's in there somewhere, but boy-howdy, do I need to work on the tune. One thing the LTD is known for is it's consistency, and this was probably it's most inconsistant performance ever. But I would call this a success. The car stayed together; nothing blew up (impressive considering the abuse I put it through by driving through the pops and sputters), and I got to meet two great mustang enthusiasts. That's a good day in my book.

The drive home highlighted the tuning problems - the idle kept going up, to the point that the car would maintain 55 mph on it's own. Obviously, I had to pull over and turn it down; but then it would somehow mysteriously creep up again...

This was intended to just be a quick update; I'll give a more detailed update later (with some media - that's a story in itself).
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Old 10-30-2010, 02:09 PM   #120
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Congrats on the passes. To me if you drove it there, draged it, drove it home and nothing broke then it was a success! Id still like to see a chassiss dyno chart due to my curiosity of the torque curve.
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Old 10-30-2010, 09:53 PM   #121
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Alex you are quite welcome, glad you made it back home with out serious issues! Al and I had a great time well worth the price of admission and got to see in person something I would have told anyone who would listen was almost certainly impossible. It not only ran better than I would have ever guessed after a 5 year hiatus but did it for three full passes!! Got you there in style and home without the hook.
Sputters and pops were minimal just sounded like it was running lean just shy of the 1k foot but even after adding fuel it did not seem to improve so maybe a mixture issue is at hand or possibly a vacuum leak that was missed in all the past month of fanatical wrenching?
My hat is off to you sir and would be more that glad to work in your pit any day all you need to do is ask.
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Old 10-30-2010, 11:08 PM   #122
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Today was another long day; but I was thinking about the passes. The last two were pretty much write offs, due to traction issues and rushing (I've never had much success tuning at the track). Shifting was difficult to predict due to the erratic behavior under load; the one decent video I've got shows the burnout - unloaded, it seems ok. I'll post it tomorrow.

I was also thinking about something else - when setting the timing, if the engine was hunting, the timing would jump around. This shouldn't happen if the timing is locked out, correct? I don't remember how I locked out the distibutor - I'll have to check it out. The rising idle is still a mystery. The two might be related. Another racer I spoke with at the track afterwards brought up the idea that if the car had been sitting for so long, some of the valvesprings could be weak - the ones that were sitting compressed.

I may have a lead on someone local who's got access to a dyno. I think I really should give that a shot. I'm determined to correct these issues. If I'm lucky, I might make one more test and tune night this year - I've got about three weeks to do it. The next week, I simply must catch up on a bunch of work that's piled up. And I'm doing that damned paperwork tomorrow...

I know it's got 10's in it.
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Old 10-31-2010, 09:54 AM   #123
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fresh valve springs would be a good move - and be sure to check installed height.
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Old 10-31-2010, 11:43 AM   #124
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Old 10-31-2010, 02:29 PM   #125
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As promised, here's some media to sink your teeth into. Aside from the excuses I posted above for only running 11.53, did I mention the headwind? Check out the flags in this pic:




I swear - that's like a full second and 10 mph off my time, right? No? You sure? Ok, ok - well give me a tenth or two and a couple of mph.

They now have a guy taking pics that you can buy at the track (thanks again, MDLX50 for getting it - I probably would've forgot) - he needs to work on his timing a bit; this isn't "peak lift," but still you can clearly see the look of bewilderment in my eyes:



Sadly, the way Capitol has reconfigured it's Jersey barriers, unless you do a 3 foot wheelstand, it's now nearly impossible to catch a good photo of whether or not you've pulled the fronts off the ground. Then again, if you're that desperate for an inch or two of daylight... I'm just sayin' there's two ways to look at that...

But here's a shot taken by MDLX50 of the Flying Four Doors of Fury staged:




And here's the timeslips; the last two, as I mentioned, were basically writeoffs; the second one reflects the Outlaw car with issues and the third was just a comedy of errors. Car number is 409:




Come along for a burnout behind the Outlaw car (video):


Note the piece of white-ish junk the track lady has to go pick off the track. Why no video of the run itself? The batteries in the camera died right there. That sucks. On the first pass, I completely forgot about the video camera; this was the second pass, and on the third pass, the camera died again, this time quicker (I can't see the screen from where I'm sitting; we had wondered why the camera froze up... now we know. Don't use non-rechargeables in these cameras; they don't last long).

It pulls pretty clean unloaded (dig the "lift gate ajar" shift light that flickers on a few times); but loaded is another story. I found some slop in the distributor; combined, it might be 10 degrees worth, but loaded properly, it's probably not that big a deal. I'm back on the fuel maps; I'll go over everything and try to get it dynoed in the next couple of weeks, and see if I can't go get the 10 second slip...
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'84 LTD LX - "Hey, watch this!" - common sense delete
10.55 @ 129.34 w/1.43 60' - footbraking the AOD on small QTPs!

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Old 10-31-2010, 02:37 PM   #126
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For the record - I had 15 psi in the slicks and 16 psi in the passenger side airbag.
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Old 10-31-2010, 02:43 PM   #127
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Great job at the track, sputtering and poping, little seat time and still running mid 11's. Nice job. After some dialing in on the tuning and gremlins you should probably be in the 10's. BTW do you have a wide band? maybe see if your running lean or have valve float. I agree fresh springs never hurt though. Do you have an aftermarket tuner or is it a stock EEC?
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Old 10-31-2010, 04:50 PM   #128
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You sir are my hero (serious). I've seen a few DIY M90 5.0s over the years, but your installs are the far better than the others.

I always wanted to do my own but didn't want to give up my accessories or other power options.

I thought the later gen Eatons had internal bypass....no? Does the Cobra one have it? I swore I was looking at a 4th (?) gen M90 on ebay and I thought it had internal bypass.

Was your M90 the supercoupe version?

So the only thing supporting the M112 is the snout and the discharge?

BTW, I have the same cheapo welder rebadged I got for $48 on clearance from CSK/Oreiley. I've only done a couple small things so far. Got it mainly to smooth an engine bay in the near future.
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Old 10-31-2010, 05:46 PM   #129
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Great build, I remember following the first one because I was a huge BBK Insta Charger fan.
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Old 10-31-2010, 11:13 PM   #130
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I seem to remember driving a screw through he advance plate locking it out (or is this the one that you flipped something around on which locked it out?). If you're getting a timing variation that's from wear in the distributor... pull up and down on the center shaft/plate assembly and see how much it moves, if too much drive the pin out of the gear and shim it tight... I'm assuming that if your gear was worn funny you would have done something about it when you had it out.

I doubt that's your issue anyway:
- you asked me what I thought the blower would do when you started the swap, I told you that I expected about 10psi and about the same power you were making before from the arrangement that you were planning... that's what you're almost seeing, it's just short of that.
- your 60 and 1/8 is about as good as it's ever been (going from rusty 5 or more year old memory, you have your old log book otherwise, double check it), either way, it's faster than your second half anyway. You're looking for a top end problem: I'd bet that your timing could be changing 5* or more and it wouldn't make a great big difference on that combination (kind of like my car on N2O, I ran the same time over a 6* rang of timing retard). Screwed up valvsprings would be consistent and also would cause a backfire (similar to your sunfire and my '83 when they had wiped cam lobes) and top end loss. So would a fuel delivery problem- did you notice if your FP is dropping at the top end? Any signs of belt slip?

Your tune shouldn't be all that far off, the combination isn't that different and the last time you paid for dyno time it was basically a waste of money.

As far as the weather goes... don't bitch about that... I don't know what they were measuring on that timeslip, but looking at the history your first run should have been around 49*F and it was dropping from there, Baro at 30.16 and going up from there, and 1mph wind with 8mph gusts... mineshaft if I've ever seen it... it could get a little colder to make more power but then you wouldn't have traction.
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:30 PM   #131
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been following this thread like a favorite soap opera. very enjoyable reading. you made mention of your static compression being low... could you elaborate? do you know your static comp. ratio? and did you by any chance get a cranking compression reading? the reason I ask is that I too have low static CR. (only about 125 cranking comp. with a large cam) with fixed timing at 20 deg. on pump gas my car has a very lazy off idle and part throttle response, but then comes on hard. I was just looking for a comparison. anyway, keep up the good work, get the tune worked out, and bring the media boys out on your next test passes. can't wait.
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Old 11-01-2010, 07:36 PM   #132
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I remember when this project was new . . . glad I'm not the only one who's been MIA for the last century . . . LOL. That is very, very, very VERY COOL!!! and HOLY CRAP!! 11's with no timing??? I would say f- the boost retard and get SCT chipped. I don't think I need to mention how much potential you're holding back . . .
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Old 11-01-2010, 09:36 PM   #133
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Hey Bulls & Heifers,

I'm playing hooky from stuff I have to do. I find this enjoyable - and with all the great comments, even more so. That said, here we go:

NEALD - I don't have a wide band. I actually haven't priced them for some time; I should look into it. For EFI, I'm running a Haltech F9A - a rather old, but halfway decent ECU.

metalman302 - Most newer (4th gens and up) Eatons have internal bypasses. This particular M112 doesn't because it was designed for a Jaguar - an XJR, I believe (I could be wrong). The M90 setup was kind of a mongrel - a very early SuperCoupe snout/rotor pack, and a later (square port inlet) case. And yes, the only thing supporting the M112 is the snout and discharge. Actually, I think the snout support is superfluous. When talking with my guy at eaton, he said that the newer TVS blowers are designed to mount by the discharge only...

JoeDirte - I thought that was a neat setup. It always looked like it was a touch restrictive in a few places. I wonder if there are any still around? Now that I know you can spin the snot out of these blowers...

Mark - Sigh. But for your amusement, this is the LTD's sixth quickest ET (the others were:11.51, 11.493, 11.51, 11.432, 11.496), eighth quickest 60' (the others were: 1.566, 1.573, 1.559, 1.583, 1.595, 1.586 and 1.600) and 15th highest mph (there were 4 trap speeds in the 118 mph range, with the highest being 118.99 - yes, I'm rounding up in my sig; and 10 in the 116 mph range - oddly, there were no 117s). This also happens to be it's third quickest 1/8 mile (the others were 7.278 and 7.288), sixth fastest 1/8 mph - the others were all 93's, with the exception of one 94.12; however, I didn't record all 1/8 mph's - for a period of a couple of years, the track didn't print them).

And for the rest of you, yes, I have kept a log of almost every pass the LTD has done (I may have missed a visit to the track or two). The first recorded pass was on July 26th, 1996 at 75 & 80 Drag-A-Way. It ran a 14.7612 at 94.1489 mph with a 2.23 60'. I had just turned 23. And I was one bad sex mo-sheen.

There is no sign of any belt slip - not like the 6 ribber (is that a word?) on the Eaton M90; which sported a nice layer of belt dust.

The weather was cold, but we did have wind gusts close to 30 mph that day. But you weren't there, despite your invite - so, as far as you're concerned, it was sunny, hot and humid. And scantily clad polynesian women were giving out free backrubs and there was many a happy ending, I can tell you. But, I'm sure you had more important things to do. Your loss.

I don't feel that the last time I paid for dyno time was a waste of money; I found out that my A/F was right on the money. I'm not sure that it's the valvesprings (I did start the car from time to time), but I suppose it could be.


botlrokit93 - That was a decent movie; I like Wes Anderson, until he gets super-pretentious. My static compression is supposed to be 8:1 (I thought it was 8.3, until I did some additional research into my pistons). I cut my own valve reliefs with a Dremel and "eyeballing it" - so I'm probably just under 8:1. I'm running a Lunati 51014 cam. Cranking compression is around 125 psi - same as yours. Without the blower, it's a little soft down low. Since I have my handy-dandy log right here, my best pass N/A was......12.945 @ 106.14 on new PepBoys Futura radials. I ran a 1.94 60'. I did run a 12.88 at 106.6, but that was with no belt, so it doesn't really count. Most of the quicker n/a passes were in the low 13's with mph checking in between 102 and 105. It seems to like around 34-36 degrees on the motor.

mercoug302 - Thanks. I'll be sure let you guys know what I discover about the timing. It's good to back, no? It happens to the best of us - or in my case, even the mediocre ones. I hope you're right on the potential; but you can bet I'll find a way to get this setup into the 10s...


That's all for now. I still have to do the paperwork I mentioned (it's turning out to be more work than I expected)...
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Old 11-01-2010, 11:16 PM   #134
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Did you get the M90 square case off a late supercoupe or is there another source? Wondering since the you said you had early rotorss, but the square case SC's had better (coated) rotors that the earlier M90's didn't.

For either of your Eatons did you ever consider swapping to a shorter snout?

Also for your hood clearance issue, did you consider using a spacer between the K member and the frame?
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Old 11-01-2010, 11:37 PM   #135
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I got the square inlet case from my friend who works at Eaton. I had initially bought the older blower used for about $180 IIRC.

I did consider shortening the snout of the M90, but it seemed to be a bit of a hassle to find one. I never really thought about it on the M112.

I did consider spacers between the k-member and the frame, but I really didn't see any benefits to that over just modding the existing mounts - besides, grinding what I've got vs. added more metal to the car seems like a pretty obvious choice to me. And remember, I also wanted to move the engine over a bit. It really wasn't terribly difficult. But I'm sure if I thought about it long enough, I could come up with some good arguements for doing the spacers... I guess I had to choose something...
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Old 11-02-2010, 06:08 AM   #136
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Alex, perhaps I didn't pay close enough attention. Could you better describe how you built your motor mounts? I'm looking to make some for my car but have no idea where to begin.

Still impressed with your setup! My buddy has an 03 cobra that made 550rwhp with the stock blower on a pulley change and dyno tune. I was rifling through my car looking for reciepts for motor mounts but didn't find them. I did find my fastest slip though. My car ran 11.668@118 with a 1.595 60'. It pulled the left front wheel 3". I wish it'd pull both at least once just to say it did it.
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Old 11-02-2010, 08:04 AM   #137
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I need to poke my head in this section more often....


Hi Mark!


Nice job Alex...
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Old 11-02-2010, 02:48 PM   #138
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Garage
man looks really cool! I remember riding in Bryan from BBK's '93 Cobra who had the same setup with the old BBK Instacharger kit and that thing was AMAZING to ride in. It was like being in a big block muscle car that had max torque at off-idle haha

Always wanted to do this on my 5.0 but now its gone, hopefully I'll get to one day on another one.

Way cool man, congrats!!!
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Old 11-02-2010, 06:18 PM   #139
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thx, guys...

lchauvin88 - I didn't make the motor mounts; I modded the ones I've got - I'm not sure I fully understand your question (then again, I'm rather tired...)
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Old 11-02-2010, 08:21 PM   #140
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Sorry for the confuaion. I thought you made the mounts. I need to make a set of solid mounts for my car but don't know how to go about it. I guess that paperwork has you running.
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