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Old 09-15-2010, 08:37 PM   #1
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408w pushrod length question

Have a 351w 9.49 deck,twisted wedge heads.

The narrowest pattern is a 8.250 push rod(.040),but it is out toward the exhaust side.If you split the valve stem into quarters it is probably in the 3rd outer quarter of the valve stem.Anything below 8 inches has the rocker arm bottoming out on the rocker stud.It goes from being so short that the rocker arm bottoms out to giving a pattern on the exhaust side of the valve tip.If I go shorter than 8.250 the pattern gets wider.At 8.150 is has widened to about .070

Are the lengths at all common for this set up.I know they vary,but is this even in the ball park.I am thinking it is just impossible to have everything correct and the wear pattern be in the center using these rocker arms.

These are Harland Sharp rockers.And this is a small base cam
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Old 09-15-2010, 09:34 PM   #2
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Small base cam could very well be causing you to bottom out. Why are you running the small base cam anyway? If it is because of a pre F4 block then all you need to do to run standard base is get linkbar lifters. A bit pricey but it beats running a crappy small base circle cam.
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Old 09-15-2010, 09:39 PM   #3
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something does not sound right. .070 is an acceptable pattern width though. I run 7.750 length rods on my motor but i dont use a small base circle cam.Maybe you could give Trick FLow or the Cam Co. a call and see if they can help.
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Old 09-16-2010, 01:25 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSmith82 View Post
Small base cam could very well be causing you to bottom out. Why are you running the small base cam anyway? If it is because of a pre F4 block then all you need to do to run standard base is get linkbar lifters. A bit pricey but it beats running a crappy small base circle cam.
I do have link bar lifters.This cam was just the closes cam I could find to what I wanted.I did not realize it was small base until after the fact.
Comp cam 35-426-8

I have talked to trick flow and they said it was within what they would consider normal.If I use 8.25 I get a razor thin wear mark(close to .030)

I tried different ways to check.
Wear pattern.
I tried to square the rocker arm at half lift and cam up with 8.15.
I tried to measure 1.150 from middle of pivot point on rocker to top of guide plate and came up with 8.25.
I have never done this before so my measurements may have been off a little,but everything seems to point to 8.15-8.25.The thing is nothing brings the wear pattern closer to the middle.It is like the distance between the stud and roller tip is too great.
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Old 09-16-2010, 07:43 AM   #5
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I'd be pulling that cam out for a custom or at least a better OTS cam if I were you...
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Old 09-16-2010, 11:53 AM   #6
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You want the narrowest wear pattern. This will be the correct length pushrod. If the wear pattern is outside of the center of the valve tip you will have to play with different rocker arms. Different brands of rocker arms are different lengths from the center of the trunion to the center of the tip.

Measure what your length is between the center of the rocker arm trunion and roller tip and see if anyone else on here can measure another brand of rocker arm for you to see if you can get one shorter that will move the tip to the center of the valve tip.
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Old 09-16-2010, 01:50 PM   #7
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FWIW I run 8.35" 3/8" pushrods with Dart 9.5" block, AFR 225s and probe shaft rockers.
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Old 09-16-2010, 02:45 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White90GT View Post
FWIW I run 8.35" 3/8" pushrods with Dart 9.5" block, AFR 225s and probe shaft rockers.
Thanks
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Old 09-17-2010, 08:08 AM   #9
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Also, I believe I have some Comp Cams Hi-tech 3/8" pushrods that are 8.20" long. Standard thickness is 5/16" so these are wider and stronger than standard pushrods, made to handle more spring pressures and rpm.

Will do $110 shipped, they are brand new, just been sitting on the shelf for a long time, so the box is a little faded. Shoot me a PM if interested.

I may also have some 8" long 5/16" pushrods, can't remember if they are TFS or comp cams, but they are hardened one piece style. Will do those for $90 shipped.
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Old 09-17-2010, 10:19 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White90GT View Post
FWIW I run 8.35" 3/8" pushrods with Dart 9.5" block, AFR 225s and probe shaft rockers.
Describe your wear pattern with the Probe shaft rockers. I run the TFS HP heads with the Probe shaft rocers,also on a 9.5 deck. Never could get the perfect narrow pattern,without really having to raise the shafts up over 1/8th inch,then having to slot the blocks to move them inboard and notch the pushrod clearance holes. Running it centered but .080 wide,without all the mods.
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Old 09-17-2010, 11:13 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mus408 View Post
Describe your wear pattern with the Probe shaft rockers. I run the TFS HP heads with the Probe shaft rocers,also on a 9.5 deck. Never could get the perfect narrow pattern,without really having to raise the shafts up over 1/8th inch,then having to slot the blocks to move them inboard and notch the pushrod clearance holes. Running it centered but .080 wide,without all the mods.
Man, I can't really remember what the measurement was on the wear pattern. I know I had to shim the rockers up like .110 or .120 with shims from Probe. This was because the rocker didn't have much if any clearance between the bottom of the rocker and the spring retainer. I believe the wear pattern was just below the center of the valve and I know it was a fairly tight pattern.

I did have to grind in the pushrod holes a little to give enough clearance for the 3/8" diameter pushrods because they were off centered.
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Old 09-17-2010, 12:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White90GT View Post
Man, I can't really remember what the measurement was on the wear pattern. I know I had to shim the rockers up like .110 or .120 with shims from Probe. This was because the rocker didn't have much if any clearance between the bottom of the rocker and the spring retainer. I believe the wear pattern was just below the center of the valve and I know it was a fairly tight pattern.

I did have to grind in the pushrod holes a little to give enough clearance for the 3/8" diameter pushrods because they were off centered.
Thanks... I have noticed,using two different pairs of TFS Highports,and on two different 351 builds,that the Probe shaft setup, put the pushrod very close to the top of the pushrod clearance hole. If you need to slot out the hole,on the Highports,you need a long cutter. A lot of length in there!
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Old 09-17-2010, 01:16 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by 6t9mach1 View Post
You want the narrowest wear pattern. This will be the correct length pushrod. If the wear pattern is outside of the center of the valve tip you will have to play with different rocker arms. Different brands of rocker arms are different lengths from the center of the trunion to the center of the tip.

Measure what your length is between the center of the rocker arm trunion and roller tip and see if anyone else on here can measure another brand of rocker arm for you to see if you can get one shorter that will move the tip to the center of the valve tip.
Measure what your length is between the center of the rocker arm trunnion and roller tip and see if anyone else on here can measure another brand of rocker arm for you to see if you can get one shorter that will move the tip to the center of the valve tip.[/QUOTE]

I have tried to find published dimensions of my rocker arms,but so far no luck.I am sure there are very minor differences between the brands so I am not sure if I could get a measurement that will be accurate enough.

This is what I got 1.455

If I measure on a diagonal from the center of the trunnion to the center of the pin holding the roller I get 1.54.
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Old 09-17-2010, 02:11 PM   #14
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I also run AFR 225s on a 9.5 deck Windsor and use the probe shaft mounts. No shims, 8.175 comp pushrods. I'll let you know how it goes when I reinstall the heads next week.
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Old 09-17-2010, 11:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
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I have tried to find published dimensions of my rocker arms,but so far no luck.I am sure there are very minor differences between the brands so I am not sure if I could get a measurement that will be accurate enough.

This is what I got 1.455

If I measure on a diagonal from the center of the trunnion to the center of the pin holding the roller I get 1.54.

I measured a set of Miller PVS rocker arms that I have laying around. They measured around 1.39" center to center give or take a little. Honestly, where the rocker arm contacts the valve tip is much less important then how wide the contact patch is. Obviously, if it is almost off the valve tip that is no good but there is some room to work with. Do you have any pictures of where the rocker arms are contacting the valve?
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Old 09-18-2010, 11:30 AM   #16
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I also run AFR 225s on a 9.5 deck Windsor and use the probe shaft mounts. No shims, 8.175 comp pushrods. I'll let you know how it goes when I reinstall the heads next week.
Even if it goes fine for you, your combo might need 8.175 pushrods but someone else with the exact same setup might need 8.170 or some completely different number. This is due to manufacturing variances that are obviously slight but when you are talking 3 or 4 pieces working in unison the variable can add up to a few thousandths. Not to mention that when people get their blocks bored/align honed/decked they might be at 9.48 or 9.49 or some other number that you are not at. Most stroker kits have a 9.48 stack height so alot of places just deck everything to 9.48 and roll.
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Old 09-18-2010, 12:25 PM   #17
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I have a 418 with a motorsports race block and old very worked highports with t&d shaft rockers and I ended up needing 8.150 pushrods. My wear mark is very small but rocker arms were shimmed up a bit. R&L out of nh did all the setting up of rocker arms to get correct contact partern and placement. I just had to measure for pushrods when I installed the heads and order them. My heads are angle milled and when they just cc'd them they are 58. My pushrod holes have also been sleeved and I have no prob with rubbing on a 3/8 push rod. Don't know if that helped, but the 8.1-8.25 is in the ball park from all the engines I have played with.
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Old 09-19-2010, 12:28 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by 6t9mach1 View Post
I measured a set of Miller PVS rocker arms that I have laying around. They measured around 1.39" center to center give or take a little. Honestly, where the rocker arm contacts the valve tip is much less important then how wide the contact patch is. Obviously, if it is almost off the valve tip that is no good but there is some room to work with. Do you have any pictures of where the rocker arms are contacting the valve?
This is not a very good picture.This is not the narrowest wear pattern I got.This is just to show the placement of the wear mark.This is as close to the middle as I can get,but I can get the wear pattern smaller.

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Old 09-19-2010, 07:59 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by SilverSmith82 View Post
Even if it goes fine for you, your combo might need 8.175 pushrods but someone else with the exact same setup might need 8.170 or some completely different number. This is due to manufacturing variances that are obviously slight but when you are talking 3 or 4 pieces working in unison the variable can add up to a few thousandths. Not to mention that when people get their blocks bored/align honed/decked they might be at 9.48 or 9.49 or some other number that you are not at. Most stroker kits have a 9.48 stack height so alot of places just deck everything to 9.48 and roll.
No ####. It would be stupid of you to assume I don't know that! The original poster asked if these lengths were common. I was confirming that they are common. But thanks for coming out!
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Old 09-19-2010, 10:46 PM   #20
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Quote:
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This is not a very good picture.This is not the narrowest wear pattern I got.This is just to show the placement of the wear mark.This is as close to the middle as I can get,but I can get the wear pattern smaller.

You just need to find a shorter rocker arm to move the tip closer to the center. An old trick to move them closer if you are way off is using Chevy rocker arms as they are shorter then sbf rockers but may be too short. Start calling rocker arm companies and see if they can measure them for you.
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