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Old 06-15-2010, 10:47 AM   #1
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347 for towing and all around hauling

i have a mountaineer with the 5.0 and a selectable 4wd transfer case. i have a forged 347 (10:1 with 58cc heads) at my disposal that i want to put in. i want to know what combination of parts would be best to go on this shortblock to make the best towing and street performer mix possible? keep in mind, this is a 4400lb truck with a 0.43 drag coefficient and a wide ratio automatic. i have torque monster headers (only choice) and a 3" cat back, but plan to create a 2.5" dual with high flow cats to mate to the cat back. i have 3.73 gears. they stay, cuz its 2 sets to replace. problem i see, is really in the trans. theres a 45% drop in gear ratio from 1st to second, so shifting at 6k would drop me into 2nd at 3250 or so (omitting the convertor factors). so, i need a very broad and flat torque curve out of this 347.
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Old 06-15-2010, 11:37 AM   #2
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There's only one way to find out? Do the swap and possibly order a custom convertor? Worst case you'll need to step the ratio in the rear axle. Once you find a good ratio you like in the rear case, order another identical case for the front.

Sounds like a cool project BTW. Heads, E-cam, X pipe and 2 chamber Flows would make for an interesting Exploder for sure!
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Old 06-15-2010, 02:14 PM   #3
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Don't run an e-cam. The suck in the exploders and suck worse in 347's. I ran one. It sucked.

You've got a unique setup. I'd have a custom done.

Btw, Which t-case conversion did you do? I had a 5.0 exploder with the aweful AWD system.
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Old 06-16-2010, 08:05 AM   #4
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my wife allowed me to do this in protest, so i have to get it right the first time think im gonna call art carr for torque converter advice. i am going to get a shift kit from them anyhow. i am planning to do a semi-custom cam (calling comp cams). really, i don't know what heads and intake would work best. the 347 has edelbrock performers on it, but i am fairly certain they are too small for a 347. BTW...the t-case is a shiftable out of a full size (4406 case). too tight to fit an electric shift.
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Old 06-16-2010, 08:24 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mustang-madness View Post
my wife allowed me to do this in protest, so i have to get it right the first time think im gonna call art carr for torque converter advice. i am going to get a shift kit from them anyhow. i am planning to do a semi-custom cam (calling comp cams). really, i don't know what heads and intake would work best. the 347 has edelbrock performers on it, but i am fairly certain they are too small for a 347. BTW...the t-case is a shiftable out of a full size (4406 case). too tight to fit an electric shift.
Granted E-brock performers might be small for a drag race 347 in a light weight car, but they might be perfect for your 4400 lbs explorer that needs a lot of low end torque. At most if you change heads, I would go out of the box twisted wedges (if your pistons clear them) or AFR 165. Keep a small head on it for good torque.
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Old 06-16-2010, 08:33 AM   #6
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ha so your wife agreed for you to hotrod her suv??
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Old 06-16-2010, 09:30 AM   #7
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i was on AFR's website. they have an archive of the "ultimate guide to 5.0 cylinder heads" series from Muscle Mustangs. forgot all about that. it was really good info then and very helpful to me now. group 1 heads were tested on a 302. group 2 on a 331 and group 3 on a 347. i stuck with group 2 since i do want smaller ports for more torque. its still not an apples to apples for what i want, but its a good indication. the flattest torque curve was the Performer RPM's (calculated as avg tq/peak tq) at 95%, but the brodix, Z304 and AFR 185 were right at 94%. i was suprised to see the z304 being near the top, since the compression ratio was at 9:1 verses 10:1 and up for the others! the TFS TW doesnt get my vote. the peak power was as good as the rest, but the torque curve wasnt flat enough for what i want to do. so, maybe the z304's are the way to go? the average torque is 6ftlbs less than the clear winner, the AFR's, but the fact it does this with less compression means i should be able to run lower octane or put in new pistons to get 10:1 and get more than the AFR's.
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:24 AM   #8
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Nothing wrong with Performers.

See sig.
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Old 06-16-2010, 10:51 AM   #9
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yeah, if i had a vortech, the 6037's would work for me too! anyhow, i just found out the z304 heads are out. they cost waaay to much. so, im trying to figure out which edelbrock heads i have without a part number. i was told they were performer efi with 2.02's. no such creature on edelbrocks website, but interesting fact...performer 2.02 matches the flow rates of the rpm 2.02. huh? so, if i have the performer (not the perfromer 5.0), i effectively have the rpm and dont need to change heads at all, since the rpms tested very well on the 331.
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Old 06-16-2010, 12:05 PM   #10
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I wouldn't believe everything you read in a magazine test. All those head manufactures are paying for advertising.

But as said, the performers will probably work just fine for you and be very torquey.
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Old 06-16-2010, 01:10 PM   #11
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I would think any aftermarket aluminum head should work reasonably well for you. The AFRs, TW, Edelbrock, even the aluminum GT40s. You need torque in your heavy SUV. You have cubes (via longer stroke--347), so that should definitely help. From a cost perspective, I'd use the Edelbrocks.

I like dual exhaust best myself, but if you have a good high flowing single, it will probably be enough if you want/need to save some money. A good header (I assume you have the only ones available?) should be okay. I doubt lots of room for long tubes or different styles available?

The explorer/mountaineer intake and throttle body will make a good torque intake. You most likely will be giving up some top end power with it (esp. on a 347) but it is all factory designed already for your application. Bolt and go sort of thing!! Have TMOSS from the corral do some magic port work on it. His work is great and prices reasonable.

I am pretty certain the mountaineer is already mass air equipped? Is that correct?

I would go custom cam, b/c not many off the shelf ones will have your project in mind, although some designed for heavy 4WD trucks and such should work too.

I am not sure which transmission you have but it should at the least be upgradeable to handle your situation quite well. (There is a possibility it can already). If it doesn't have a low gear set already that would be a start. My truck is the AOD but will be an E4OD, but that isn't in explorers. It is something like R4700w? From what I have read this is a very good transmission for your application---when properly prepared of course. It is electronically controlled though.

3.73 gears may be enough depending on tire size. There are numerous charts in magazines and internet on how to calculate needed ratio. You need initial gear ratio, initial tire size, new tire size and solve for x (new gear). If keeping the same tire size you should be able to figure out how much lower you want/need based on rpm changes in these charts.

I frequent FullSizeBronco.com also. It will have some usable information for you. You will have to search some but should find some helpful information there.

Good luck with your project and I look forward to hearing more about what happens.

tim

Last edited by TS 95Cobra; 06-16-2010 at 01:26 PM. Reason: ETA: more information
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Old 06-16-2010, 01:51 PM   #12
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With 1 5/8th tiny shorties it did 340rwhp 350tq on a dyno N/A.

You are also going to need custom headers. The only custom header I know if is "monster torque" headers. I don't know if they are still around but its what all the explorer guy's used.
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Old 06-17-2010, 08:04 AM   #13
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i have advertised dyno graphs for the edelbrock 347 (using the rpm xtreme heads) and the t&l 347 (using dart pro 1 heads). its not gospel, nor is it my engine, but its an indication. by plotting it into excel with the trans ratios and shift points, its clear that the darts give up more hp/tq from the 1-2 shift than the edelbrocks. if i could get a dyno graph for something close to what i have, i'd like to plug that in and see what it looks like. Nitrous SSC, do you have a dyno graph for yours n/a? what intake and cam are you running?

also, TS 95Cobra, i do have the torque monster headers (large collector version) and the 4r70w trans (i think thats what you menat by r4700w). its got a 45% drop in ratio from 1-2. that is a killer in a heavy truck with lots of wind drag. i am thinking about shifting 1-2 at 6500. im losing power going past 6k, but gaining power on the upshift. if not, i need an engine that makes peak tq at about 3800, cuz shifting 1-2 @6k drops me to 3250.

the engine has an aftermarket intake on it already with a larger tb and lmaf. i talked to art carr last night about the torque convertor. they said any stall is going to suck for heavy towing, but any power cam is going to suck without a stall. arrrgg!
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Old 06-17-2010, 09:48 AM   #14
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No way in hell you'd want the cam I run. For your application I'd say talk to buddy rawls or Jay Allen.

Also Freezy74 on here is bad ass. He's who I am going to use for my next cam.
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Old 06-17-2010, 04:25 PM   #15
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Yes, that is the transmission I was trying to recall. It is supposed to be a good one for your application. Not a race transmission, but I assumed this was not an all out race project.

I think for the tow application and a heavy suv to begin with you will want a very low stall. Cam wise, I doubt you want a high rpm screamer. It will most probably give up too much bottom end. (Disclaimer: I am not a cam guy, I would leave that to an expert)

This project is like all others, best heads you can find/afford, intake, cam for your application, exhaust and a properly prepared transmission. It should be fun, but will never be as fast as the same combo in a mustang, pinto, maverick, etc.

I recently purchased a factory HO cam for my truck project. It will have a stock 96 short block windsor, GT40X heads, lightning intake, headers and an E4OD. My truck originally came with the AOD, so I have been gathering parts and formulating a plan for the change. So our projects aren't competely different. I am gonna work with the speed density computer for now. (Money, time, and high miles on my 4X4 DD truck are all contributing factors). Keep me/us updated and I'll chime in with anything I have learned or already researched that I think will be of some help to you. Good luck!

tim

From your description your transmission already has the low gearset. I think it would be better suited to my application than the normal one, but perhaps not so much for you? If that is what you have decided, I think there is a regular gear set that can be swapped in with a lower (numerically) first gear. This will take away some bottom end but should tighten up your rpm range from first to second. I think the AOD gearset is the same, but I may be mixin' up transmissions again! LOL

Last edited by TS 95Cobra; 06-17-2010 at 04:30 PM. Reason: ETA: More transmission comments
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Old 06-17-2010, 04:42 PM   #16
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Also search on the explorer forum for "the troll" he had a wicked 347 that ran 10's in think in his exploder.
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Old 06-17-2010, 05:23 PM   #17
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I wouldn't believe everything you read in a magazine test. All those head manufactures are paying for advertising.
Incuding AFR
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Old 06-17-2010, 05:27 PM   #18
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i was on AFR's website. they have an archive of the "ultimate guide to 5.0 cylinder heads" series from Muscle Mustangs. forgot all about that. it was really good info then and very helpful to me now. group 1 heads were tested on a 302. group 2 on a 331 and group 3 on a 347. i stuck with group 2 since i do want smaller ports for more torque. its still not an apples to apples for what i want, but its a good indication. the flattest torque curve was the Performer RPM's (calculated as avg tq/peak tq) at 95%, but the brodix, Z304 and AFR 185 were right at 94%. i was suprised to see the z304 being near the top, since the compression ratio was at 9:1 verses 10:1 and up for the others! the TFS TW doesnt get my vote. the peak power was as good as the rest, but the torque curve wasnt flat enough for what i want to do. so, maybe the z304's are the way to go? the average torque is 6ftlbs less than the clear winner, the AFR's, but the fact it does this with less compression means i should be able to run lower octane or put in new pistons to get 10:1 and get more than the AFR's.
Not only do the Z304's run at the top...If you Measure the length of the intake port they are longer than both the AFR and the twisted wedge
they are really like having a 180cc intake port..that is why the Z304 had such a good Torque band even with lower compression
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Old 06-18-2010, 11:33 AM   #19
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If you're serious about using this for towing something heavy you have to forget most of what you know about building a Mustang powerplant because it doesn't apply. Any of the heads mentioned here will work but if you want a towing friendly motor there are two things that are not open for discussion.. compression ratio and camshaft duration. CR has to be no higher than 9.5:1 and preferrably a little lower to minimize detonation under load and the cam needs to have really short intake duration.. like well under 215deg to produce a torque heavy powerband. Forget about what happens at 6000rpm you won't spend any time there, you want as much TQ as possible from idle up and there's no reason you can't have 400+ ft/lbs at 2000rpm from this combo. Cams that fit the profile are the Crane 444211, Comp 35-320-8, Lunati 61010.
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Old 06-21-2010, 09:20 AM   #20
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i downloaded the comp cams software. it suggested similar cams. i think what i am going to do is take the performer heads and have them freshened and ported. they seem very close to what i want and the guy who ported my mustang heads, knew very well how to translate what i wanted into a good port job to match my expectations. cant wait to start this project! i love my truck as a whole. the missing link was the power. if i do this right, it will be a very long time before i start looking for a new truck.
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1997 Mountaineer DD(hey, its got a 5.0!)
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Old 06-21-2010, 12:21 PM   #21
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Skip the Art Carr converter...

DO NOT get your converter from Art Carr!
*long story....sorry*

Three years ago I swapped a 4R70W out of a 94 F-150 into my 1990 Lincoln Mark VII. I chose to go with Art Carr for the converter. Huge mistake.

I order through a local rod shop. I was very clear on all the specs.
I asked for a 9 1/2 inch converter that would stall around 2800 RPM
Specs I gave them at the time:
-stock 5.0 bottom end
-AFR 165s
-Trick Flow Street heat intake
-Steeda #19 cam (YES it sucks for a heavy auto)
-3.55s
-4R70W
-car weighs 3960 with me and 1/2 tank gas

So a few weeks later I get the converter, install it and go for a ride.
It's taching about 2500 RPM just cruising through the neighborhood, flashing to 4000 RPM when launching from a redlight, and when out on the highway in O/D converter unlocked it's flashing to 5000 RPM.
I call Art Carr and explain the problem. The knuckle dragger on the other end say's "Oh, yah. I remember your order. But I used to have a Mustang with a similar combo and changed your order. I had GT-40 heads, Cobra intake..."
That's where I stopped him and we discussed his need to stick to customer's orders.

So I send it back. A month later I get another converter.
Once installed I head out and the stall/flash RPMs have dropped only by about 200 RPMs, and now there is an incredible vibration. Take it to the shop where the tranny was built, pull everything to find out. The tranny guy (very reputable here in Dallas/Ft. Worth) measures the converter against a known good converter. The pilot shaft is a almost 1/8 of an inch too long.

So this time I talk to one of the higher up's and get a bulls**t song and dance.
I ended up installing a converter my trans guy had (new in box) sitting on the shelf and he took over dealing with Art Carr.

The moral to the story is that Art Carr in Abeline, TX cannot find their own asses with both hands and written instructions. That, and their customer service is dismal.
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Old 06-21-2010, 02:32 PM   #22
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Also search on the explorer forum for "the troll" he had a wicked 347 that ran 10's in think in his exploder.
yeah, if i had stroke, a blower AND nitrous, i'd be upset if i didn't run 10's! i might be upset if i didn't set a land speed record too!

good to know about art carr. that's very disappointing. i'd be pissed if i had to pull the trans even once for my f-up let alone the company's f-up!
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Old 08-17-2010, 11:27 AM   #23
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im going to swap the 347 into my mustang and the 408 into the mounty. the 347 may be 100ft/lbs better than stock, but the 408 is 200 better! and it gets me a legal engine for american iron.
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Old 08-18-2010, 05:34 PM   #24
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Why would you waste a good 408 or 347 for a daily driven Mountaineer ?



oh well, to each his own
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fine. I'm out. I don't need this place.
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Old 08-18-2010, 05:54 PM   #25
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I ran a Holley Systemax kit on a 347. Made 300 RWP 360 TQ untuned with 3.73's....In a stang

It was out around 5600 but it would pull a tree down for sure. I beleive the holley cam is a Lunati grind.

Since ya got a heavier truck I would look into it.

No way on a custom cam, I mean its a explorer guys with a combo thats been done before. Its just gonna need a smaller cam to get it rolling and have more grunt.
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Old 08-18-2010, 10:46 PM   #26
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hey mr Nutts, with a signature like "too much is...just enough", i wouldn't expect such a comment. for shame

not sure what the holley cam grind looks like, but at this time, i am planning on a comp cams with .544/.544 and 218/224 duration. seems to have a really good torque curve that peaks at 4000, make great power up to 5500 and idle well with lots of vacuum.
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Old 08-20-2010, 07:17 PM   #27
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I dropped my E4OD off at the shop for a rebuild today. My truck project has moved up a little. How are you coming with this?
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Old 08-20-2010, 10:45 PM   #28
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hey mr Nutts, with a signature like "too much is...just enough", i wouldn't expect such a comment. for shame

not sure what the holley cam grind looks like, but at this time, i am planning on a comp cams with .544/.544 and 218/224 duration. seems to have a really good torque curve that peaks at 4000, make great power up to 5500 and idle well with lots of vacuum.
No worries, I beleive the Lunati cam was around .512 lift. It idled very nicely, with a little lope to it. It was in my DD mustang I had.

On you tube type explorer X cam. And there is a vid of one with GT40 X heads getting on it. Dont look to shabby either.
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Old 08-21-2010, 01:34 PM   #29
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No worries, I beleive the Lunati cam was around .512 lift. It idled very nicely, with a little lope to it. It was in my DD mustang I had.

On you tube type explorer X cam. And there is a vid of one with GT40 X heads getting on it. Dont look to shabby either.
didnt find that video, but by typing in mountaineer x cam, you will find the truck that i bought that had this 347 in it.
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Old 08-21-2010, 01:36 PM   #30
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I dropped my E4OD off at the shop for a rebuild today. My truck project has moved up a little. How are you coming with this?
the 2 engines have swapped parts. i have everything except the headers to put he 347 in the stang. they are coming tuesday or wednesday. once the engine is in and running, the truck will come in to start its transplant. probably not going to be ab to start the truck project until after labor day.
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Old 08-21-2010, 02:17 PM   #31
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You've got a unique setup. I'd have a custom done.
Are you serious? The guys just wants a decent cam for a 347 to tow with. I think the general answer on this site is custom cam.

"Do you guys know why my rear tail light keeps going on and off?"

"Well first let me ask...do you have a custom cam?"

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Old 10-19-2010, 01:44 PM   #32
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for anyone who cares, the project is humming along. i have my cam picked out and in. i have a plan for a custom cam position sensor, just waiting on a part to be made. i have an oil pan and pickup built and installed. the engine has been test fit and needed only a 1/4" spacer to raise the engine to clear the deeper pan. i am about to marry up the engine and trans and drop them in. then install the accessories. then start making my exhaust. so far, so good.
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1997 Mountaineer DD(hey, its got a 5.0!)
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Old 10-19-2010, 10:40 PM   #33
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Sounds good. Assembly should start on my engine sometime real soon. Transmission has been completed several weeks ago.

tim
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Old 10-19-2010, 11:27 PM   #34
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Quote:
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Are you serious? The guys just wants a decent cam for a 347 to tow with. I think the general answer on this site is custom cam.

"Do you guys know why my rear tail light keeps going on and off?"

"Well first let me ask...do you have a custom cam?"

LOL yep. Every Tom, Dick, and Harry on here has the same answer. "Needs a custom cam!".

There's a REASON why there are "shelf" camshafts in the first place. They're cheap, and they WORK. Especially for towing applications, of all things.
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Old 10-20-2010, 07:17 PM   #35
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Mustang Madness....

I have been following your progress on EF, I am there also...under the same name as here.

I am shopping for a custom cam, along with Heads and Intake....

Who did you go with for your cam?

Ryan
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