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Old 06-07-2009, 10:44 PM   #1
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351W Long Rod Motor Buildup- Supercharged 700 HP

I thought i'd post my 351w buildup. I recently tore down my old '85 block that was a simple .030 bore and stock crank and rods and TRW pistons. The old motor made great power but was in need of a freshen. The car made 580 to the tires with Victor Jr. heads a mild cam and a Vortech T-Trim. The combo produced about 8.5:1 compression

By the time I tore the old one down I found a really nice 69 block with all of the machine work already done. I thought I'd go through and document the rebuild. This setup should push about 650 to the tires with 9:1 compression and same boost.

Here's a pic before the tear down:













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Old 06-07-2009, 10:45 PM   #2
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This is the new 69 block. Its been bored .030 over, torque plate honed, and line bored. All of the oil galleys were tapped and hex allen plugs were used instead of the factory freeze plugs. The oil return passages in the galley were worked and smoothed to improve oil flow back to the pan. I also drilled and tapped the center of the valley for the roller lifter spider.








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Old 06-07-2009, 10:46 PM   #3
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I heard so many good things about the Speed Pro 130 M 3/4 groove bearings I went ahead and bought a set. The bearings fit right into the early model block but I did have to go and cut a acceptance tab in the 5 main caps as shown.









Here you can see the top half of the bearing making up the 3/4 groove. I'm really pleased with these bearings

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Old 06-07-2009, 10:47 PM   #4
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The pistons I'm using are Manley Forged. I got them with a package deal with the block, rods, and crank. They were Flat tops and were going to put me up in the 10:1 range so we machined a dish in them. Being very careful not go down too far to compromise the structural integrity of the piston. I spent some time talking to Manleys Engineering department to make sure. We ended up taking out about 10 CCs putting me right at 9:1 CR. Dont worry the rings were taken back off and cleaned for machining debris before the install.










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Old 06-07-2009, 10:53 PM   #5
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You were lucky with the factory rod bolts.

I thought i'd go budget and just bore .030 with new KB pistons. Every time i reved it i was afraid of the factory rod bolts either breaking or stretching.

After 800 miles i tore it down again to add H beam rods and have it rebalanced again. Thank god i tore it apart. The #5 rod bolts must have stretched and one bearing got the ear broke off and forced it into the side of the crank and wore the edge of the bearing down to the copper. I few more high revs and the bearing would have spun or broke a rod bolt.

These were factory "football" rods with the factory bolts.

The machine shop charged me $200 to re size the small end of the football rods for floating pins. For that price i could have got a set of i beams with arp hardware already installed.

Basically it would have cost me a couple hundred more to go with h beams from the get go. Now i've wasted $200 in machining the factory rods, another $200 balance job to redo the mistake. A whole gasket kit to put it back together. Not counting all the time involved in pulling the engine and going threw it all again.

Saving $200 almost cost me the whole engine.
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Old 06-07-2009, 11:03 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpmmustang89 View Post
You were lucky with the factory rod bolts.

I thought i'd go budget and just bore .030 with new KB pistons. Every time i reved it i was afraid of the factory rod bolts either breaking or stretching.

After 800 miles i tore it down again to add H beam rods and have it rebalanced again. Thank god i tore it apart. The #5 rod bolts must have stretched and one bearing got the ear broke off and forced it into the side of the crank and wore the edge of the bearing down to the copper. I few more high revs and the bearing would have spun or broke a rod bolt.

These were factory "football" rods with the factory bolts.

The machine shop charged me $200 to re size the small end of the football rods for floating pins. For that price i could have got a set of i beams with arp hardware already installed.

Basically it would have cost me a couple hundred more to go with h beams from the get go. Now i've wasted $200 in machining the factory rods, another $200 balance job to redo the mistake. A whole gasket kit to put it back together. Not counting all the time involved in pulling the engine and going threw it all again.

Saving $200 almost cost me the whole engine.
I have heard some horror stories about those rod bolts. Yes you were really lucky to have saved it not knowing you could have ruined your block, crank and who knows what else. My bearings were starting to show copper on all the mains and the top of the rod from all of the hard slamming. I did have ARP bolts in my rods though, with it all balanced. My rings were shot though, it didn't burn any oil but the compression rings were mushroomed. During a compression test I found 90 psi on one cylinder and 150 on the rest.

Good luck with your rebuild. You rebalanced it just for a rod bolt change, how much did they have to do? Is it back and running again?
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Old 06-07-2009, 11:15 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justhereforinfo View Post
Does that casting number say D9....? I thought D was for the 1970 decade.

Isnt it C=1960 D=1970 E=1980 and so on..?
The casting number is C9 the picture is kind of ####ty. Some of theses were taken with my camera phone, when my hands were too greasy to grab my camera.
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Old 06-07-2009, 11:20 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badazgt View Post
wow man thats an awesome build!! Interesting how u used that vertical mill to cut the pistons... how can you remove that much material without hindering the strength?? Theres not much material there!
The min thickness requirement on Manleys high end blower pistons is to meet .200" all way around, and they are subject up to 29 psi no problems. I measured the piston with the most material taken out from the weight matching during the balancing and went from there. I also had to watch out for the ring land to dish diameter and make sure it would also meet .200." I have a pic when I model the piston up in Pro-Engineer to make sure all of the dims checked out. I'll see if I can upload a picture of that tomorrow.
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Old 06-08-2009, 12:02 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl Wesson View Post
I have heard some horror stories about those rod bolts. Yes you were really lucky to have saved it not knowing you could have ruined your block, crank and who knows what else. My bearings were starting to show copper on all the mains and the top of the rod from all of the hard slamming. I did have ARP bolts in my rods though, with it all balanced. My rings were shot though, it didn't burn any oil but the compression rings were mushroomed. During a compression test I found 90 psi on one cylinder and 150 on the rest.

Good luck with your rebuild. You rebalanced it just for a rod bolt change, how much did they have to do? Is it back and running again?
Nope not going yet. Going hopefully this week to be rebalanced. I considered adding arp bolts to the rods. Buy the time i pay for the arp bolts and resizing I'll have like $500 in factory rods. I cut my loss with the $200 for re sizing the small end 2 years ago and bought a set of eagle H beams to be safe.

I have a set or Probe forged SRS dished pistons with the right compression height for a 393 and the h beam rods. Just missing the crank. Then i'd have to rehone for the probe forged pistons. The stock crank was cut .010 2 years ago and all the jornals look nice. Want to sell the car after i get a few passes with the new cam and i know even with the 393 kit it won't bring anymore money lol.

Your gonna have a awesome machine.
Ever consider a vic jr intake converted to efi ? I'd think the long runner intake would be holding some hp back.
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Old 06-08-2009, 03:22 AM   #10
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I have sitting on the shelf a 351W long rod kit, 6.580 rods machined, resized ARP bolts and small end bushed, shot peened, balanced.
If I could post up attachments i would but posting rules apply.
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:08 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpmmustang89 View Post
Nope not going yet. Going hopefully this week to be rebalanced. I considered adding arp bolts to the rods. Buy the time i pay for the arp bolts and resizing I'll have like $500 in factory rods. I cut my loss with the $200 for re sizing the small end 2 years ago and bought a set of eagle H beams to be safe.

I have a set or Probe forged SRS dished pistons with the right compression height for a 393 and the h beam rods. Just missing the crank. Then i'd have to rehone for the probe forged pistons. The stock crank was cut .010 2 years ago and all the jornals look nice. Want to sell the car after i get a few passes with the new cam and i know even with the 393 kit it won't bring anymore money lol.

Your gonna have a awesome machine.
Ever consider a vic jr intake converted to efi ? I'd think the long runner intake would be holding some hp back.
Thanks, this motor is going to be a monster! I can't wait to see how fast it revs up with the lightweight rotating assembly. I did think about the vic jr intake converted. Isn't that the Spyder intake? My car makes peak power at 5700 rpm. I think it will pull slightly more this time round. The TFS is suppost to make power up to 6500 rpm, but that is just advertised. I'll do some research into the new intake
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Old 06-08-2009, 09:14 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rancherov8power View Post
I have sitting on the shelf a 351W long rod kit, 6.580 rods machined, resized ARP bolts and small end bushed, shot peened, balanced.
If I could post up attachments i would but posting rules apply.
Javier
The long rods I'm using are 6.46 long. They are BME forged aluminum. I'll post a pic tonight. There are a number of image hosting sites out there that are free. Try Google pics.
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Old 06-08-2009, 12:52 PM   #13
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Here's the piston modeled up in Pro-E. I just had to make sure i wouldn't mill too much material out in the dish pocket. Overall .200" thickness was maintained in the pocket and from the ring land.






This last picture is really stretched wide, the material appears less than what is actually there

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Old 06-08-2009, 10:18 PM   #14
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Here are the massive long rods, measuring 6.460 stock around 6. I removed the info about the longer dwell and timing.







Here is the completed rod and piston. The spiral locks were a pain to put in, even worse to take out when I installed a rod backwords...

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Old 06-08-2009, 10:23 PM   #15
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Whats the deck height now? Whats the compression height on that piston and have those rods been run before?
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Old 06-09-2009, 01:14 PM   #16
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Quote:
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Whats the deck height now? Whats the compression height on that piston and have those rods been run before?
The factory hieght of the '69 block was 9.480 and they cut around .010 off of that. I belive the compression height of the pistons is 1.25 or 1.26. We figured worst case it was going to be 0 deck. I just installed the piston and rod combo this weekend and they came up .10-.012 down in the cylinder so they worked out awesome. The rods only have dyno time on them. They are practically new and they are for the Chevy journal size.
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Old 06-09-2009, 02:03 PM   #17
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nice build.
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Old 06-09-2009, 03:35 PM   #18
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what software is that?? Ever used Solid Edge?
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Old 06-09-2009, 07:01 PM   #19
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Here are the massive long rods, measuring 6.460 stock around 6. There are lot of advantages of a long rod ratio motor listed on the Corral including more dwell time when the piston is at TDC which leads to less detonation and being able to run higher timing.
LOL! rod length doesnt do anything, chrysler spent a few million researching it trying to pick up power... from 5.5 to 6.5 inch rod nothing was found
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Old 06-09-2009, 08:07 PM   #20
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Not going to "laugh" But longer TDC dwell time tends to lend itself to the propensity to detonate. The single advantage to a long(er) rod for a given build is reduction of rod angle in strokers. Get too much rod angle and ya waist HP trying to drive the pin and side of the piston through the side of the bore on the compression and exhaust strokes.

In "long" rod engines, typically you want to reduce your timming, as you don't want to build a bunch of cylinder pressure as the piston is at TDC, you take advantage of the dwell and reduce the timming. Ideal is to get peak cylinder pressure with the crank at about 10 degrees after TDC.

When talking builds, more pistoncontrol is often desirable over rod angel, when the rod angel isn't bad to start with.

454 chevies suck with rod angle right out of the factory.. so improving that in stroker applications is great. Because of the lower crank height in the ford blocks, our stroker combinations are better with conventional rod packages than the stock chevies from factory...
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Old 06-09-2009, 09:02 PM   #21
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Looks like you have quite the shop there.
Its coming along nicely.
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Old 06-09-2009, 10:46 PM   #22
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Quote:
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In "long" rod engines, typically you want to reduce your timming, as you don't want to build a bunch of cylinder pressure as the piston is at TDC, you take advantage of the dwell and reduce the timming. Ideal is to get peak cylinder pressure with the crank at about 10 degrees after TDC.

When talking builds, more pistoncontrol is often desirable over rod angel, when the rod angel isn't bad to start with.

454 chevies suck with rod angle right out of the factory.. so improving that in stroker applications is great. Because of the lower crank height in the ford blocks, our stroker combinations are better with conventional rod packages than the stock chevies from factory...
I've got to listen to Kim when it comes to the combustion engine. Well put about the dwell time, I do agree about extra cylinder pressure at TDC.

What I really didn't like in my old combo was that how the far down the piston pin is on the piston 351w stock type TRW pistons. They appeared very unstable in the cylinder.
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Old 06-09-2009, 11:05 PM   #23
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Taken from a good article I found. Which one of the problems I found when taking my previous 351w apart was the high wear on the sides of the pistons and scratches in the cylinder walls.

"The longer rod allows the piston to come to a stop at the top of the bore and accelerate away much more slowly than a short rod engine. This slower motion translates into a lower instantaneous velocity and hence lower stresses on the piston. Another strong effect on mechanical stress levels is the angle of the connecting rod with the bore centerline during the engine cycle. The smaller the centerline angle, the less the side loading on the cylinder wall. The longer rod will have less centerline angle for the same crank angle than the shorter rod and therefore has lower side loadings. "
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Old 06-14-2009, 01:42 AM   #24
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After talking with numerous people on here including Kato I shot for .0027-.0029 on the mains. It came out dead on. I used a 2-3" mic for the crank and an inside mic for the bearings with the caps torqued down.







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Old 06-14-2009, 01:50 AM   #25
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Quote:
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what software is that?? Ever used Solid Edge?
The software is Pro Engineer Wildfire version 3. I've never used Solid Edge but I have dabbed in SolidWorks and it is very user friendly with more analysis and animation functions than Pro-E. Both tools are great to use.
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Old 06-14-2009, 08:00 PM   #26
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Awesome build.. whats it going in??
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:06 PM   #27
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I used the Speed Pro Moly top ring and iron second ring. I gapped it to the Supercharged/Nitrous Race spec set at .026" Overall real easy to file fit with the right tool. One thing I learned was that the second ring being a softer metal filed ALOT faster. I had to be careful not to go over. I ended up gapping all the second rings at .030"







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Old 06-22-2009, 10:08 PM   #28
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Quote:
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Awesome build.. whats it going in??
Its going into the 93 sonic blue hatchback seen in the top. I'll post some pics of it when its all done also...
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2001 BMW M3 Driver
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:17 PM   #29
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The torque spec on these BME rods was 65 ft/lbs with oil. I thought it was kind of high but they are some large 7/16 bolts. I thought it was interesting that BME recomends running synthetic 10w-30 oil or if you insist on running Patroleum based oil make it 20w-50. Overall really nice rods but if you wanted to buy them new kind of pricey for compared to what else is out there. The list price on these now is around $1400 a set



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2001 BMW M3 Driver

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Old 06-22-2009, 10:18 PM   #30
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1992 Notchback Black on Black
1993 Cobra Clone 357W, TFS R Intake, 60 lb inj, Vic Jr Heads, Vortech T-Trim, P/A C4, 606 RWHP @13 PSI; 10.44@130 on 8 lbs
2001 BMW M3 Driver
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:19 PM   #31
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Crank Thrust came in right at .008" No sanding or adjusting needed on the bearing

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2001 BMW M3 Driver

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Old 06-22-2009, 10:23 PM   #32
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BME is like oliver, every few years the whole thing changes. Some people love em, others hate em...... I run the oliver steel rods simply because I couldn't see the cost of replacement every few years. Should get 4 times the life out of the lightweight steels, as you'll get out of the aluminum. BUT, the aluminum absorb shock better, and really LIGHTEN the assembly. The BME rods are some nice pieces.
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:26 PM   #33
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stock main bolt Track car only I presume?
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Old 06-22-2009, 10:33 PM   #34
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Quote:
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stock main bolt Track car only I presume?
Good point. Yeah Its mainly a track car, but will be driving it on the street some. I looked at going to studs but then there was the whole issue of the oil pump pickup bolt deal.

Then I was going to install a girdle but then I would have to get everything line honed again... So in the end I deciding I am keeping it under 6500 RPM anyway so I should be fine. It looks like they are grade 8 from the factory.
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1992 Notchback Black on Black
1993 Cobra Clone 357W, TFS R Intake, 60 lb inj, Vic Jr Heads, Vortech T-Trim, P/A C4, 606 RWHP @13 PSI; 10.44@130 on 8 lbs
2001 BMW M3 Driver

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Old 06-22-2009, 10:43 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl Wesson View Post
Good point. Yeah Its mainly a track car, but will be driving it on the street some. I looked at going to studs but then there was the whole issue of the oil pump pickup bolt deal.

Then I was going to install a girdle but then I would have to get everything line honed again... So in the end I deciding I am keeping it under 6500 RPM anyway so I should be fine. It looks like they are grade 8 from the factory.
ARP main stud kit comes with the longer stud for the pickup. Converters pull down real hard, watch that rod on the street.
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