I want more from my Cleveland.

[Chris]

It makes approx 500hp now but I want more.
Here's what I got right now.
Short is a two bolt block (that will have to be reenforced).
Billet steel 3.9 inch stroke Keith Kraft crank, Manley H beam rods, custom Venolia pistons. Compression is 10.5:1 and it displaces 399ci with the 3.9 inch stroke and 4.035 inch bore.
Heads are for the most part untouched 4V stock iron heads. Intake is a Edelbrock Torker. And Carb is a Holly/BG 750.
I run a Comp Cam with .648, .641 lift and 270, 276 duration @.050 with a 106 LSA.
Exhaust is 1-7/8 longtube Hedman swap headers and 3-1/2 exhaust.

I'm thinking it will need heads and a cam swap to make more power.
I also run a 225 shot of nitrous with a NOS Big Shot plate.

What kind of suggestions do you people have for me?

Thanks,
Chris.

[1BAD50]

Focus on Exhaust...

Every aspect...

From the valve and it's seat...

To the end of the tailpipe...

[davis]

Originally Posted by Chris

Heads are for the most part untouched 4V stock iron heads.

Lose the 4V iron heads and get a good set of alloy heads like the AFD 4Vs. Alternatively, send your iron heads out for porting. It will cost more money, weigh more weight and flow less volume/velocity than the alloy heads, but hey, they are what they are. AFD heads rock.

[Tater]

I agree with the above posts on upgrading the heads. Maybe one thing to consider is looking out for a pair of the old school Pro Stock style heads with the rasied exhaust ports via the Aluminum plates and reworked/raised intake runners. I got a pair of these a couple weeks from a local racer that upgraded to a set of Blue Thunders and I feel I got a Killer deal on them versus going to an Alum aftermarket head. Worst thing will be getting some headers fabbed up when need be.(getting the matching Roush/FMS intake soon as I get the coin, from same person that I got the heads from)
Might want to talk to a couple places/people and check into getting a new cam ground for the current combo, to work with the Nitrous a lil' better. I know a couple contacts that will take the time/info and get you set-up. If your interested just shoot me an e-mail and I'll hook you up.
On the 2 Bolt Block.....you know your getting almost at the limit of the safe range....
Hope this helps.

Tater

[Chris]

I would really like to upgrade the heads but I'm thinking I would need to get a new set of pistons also. I have the open chamber 4V heads and the Venolia pistons were made custom for these. Were could I find info on reworking the ports on my heads and installing exhaust plates.
Once I get the heads figured out I will most likely go with a custom cam.
As for the two bolt block....tick...tick...tick...
I've been reading the other thread on how to make a stock Cleveland block strong. I think I will partially fill the block and see if I can find some kind of main stud girdle. If they make them.

Thanks for the replies.

[All Cleveland]

Originally Posted by davis

Lose the 4V iron heads and get a good set of alloy heads like the AFD 4Vs. Alternatively, send your iron heads out for porting. It will cost more money, weigh more weight and flow less volume/velocity than the alloy heads, but hey, they are what they are. AFD heads rock.

They're not aluminum but Raceallday's stock, virtually untouched 4V heads flowed almost the same #s as the heads you're talking about. For that kind of money they had better flow alot more than the high port heads they show.

[1BAD50]

I'm going to try one more time to give the biggest clue ever posted in this forum about how to make the stock 4V iron castings work...

Read the first paragraph about the AFD 2V exhaust ports...what's it say!!!

Guy's who haven't operated a flow bench AND a dyno are excused...

Now fix your iron castings...if your thinking raising/portplates...go stand in the corner...

The fix may be hazardous...you got to think it out...

And when it's done right...get rid of that ridiculous overly extended exhaust cam profile...

And start to make some torque...

[Hack]

Originally Posted by 1BAD50

I'm going to try one more time to give the biggest clue ever posted in this forum about how to make the stock 4V iron castings work...

Read the first paragraph about the AFD 2V exhaust ports...what's it say!!!

Guy's who haven't operated a flow bench AND a dyno are excused...

Now fix your iron castings...if your thinking raising/portplates...go stand in the corner...

The fix may be hazardous...you got to think it out...

And when it's done right...get rid of that ridiculous overly extended exhaust cam profile...

And start to make some torque...

[davis]

Originally Posted by All Cleveland

They're not aluminum but Raceallday's stock, virtually untouched 4V heads flowed almost the same #s as the heads you're talking about. For that kind of money they had better flow alot more than the high port heads they show.

I don't know where Raceallday came into the picture, but I'm finding it hard to believe that stock iron 4V heads flow as well (flow volume and flow velocity) as the 2V AFDs. Flow quality can not be measured by volume alone.

With porting, the AFDs will flow a lot more than an iron head, both in volume and velocity. Whether it is worth it to the owner who has to pay the bill, that's another story altogether.

[Raceallday1]

If your looking for an aluminum head for a 351C then you need to find a pair of A,B, or C302 heads. Forget all the fake "street" heads and buy some heads you can make some serious power with. There is no way I would spend almost $3000 for a pair of "street" heads when I could buy a pair of used, C302 or Yates heads complete, with porting and titanium valves for around $2500.

[kid vishus]

Originally Posted by Chris

It makes approx 500hp now but I want more.
What kind of suggestions do you people have for me?

Thanks,
Chris.

My suggestions;

More carb, try a 950HP, or similar. Clevelands love big carbs. I picked up 3 tenths going from a stock 750 DP to a stock 950 HP. Try and find a Strip Dominator intake also. They are simply the best single plane drag race intake for the cleveland available without modifications. I know everyone has a stiffy for the Funnelweb intakes, but frankly, the power output I have seen from them sucks.
If you dont want to spend a ton of money on the heads, they respond real well to a little backyard port work without getting too fancy. I got 229 cfm out of my exhuast ports, and I am not a professional porter by any means. That's not record setting numbers, but considering they started off less than 180 cfm, it was a huge gain and I didn't have to change headers. Or if you decide to keep your iron heads and have some money to spend, send them to Keith Craft or Jim Kuntz. They can do wonders with them (over 360 cfm @ .700 lift on the intakes with great velocity), but it isn't cheap. Or, if it were mine and I had the money to spend, I would try to find a set of older C302B heads and stick them on the motor. They are a proven head that makes a lot of power. Too many people assume because something is new that it is better than 'old' stuff. Sadly, that isn't always true.

I would fill the block halfway up the water pump holes with a good block filler. (The best stuff to use is an aluminum epoxy from Devcon, but it should be used before the block is bored.) If you weren't using the nitrous, that would really be all it would need. But with nitrous, I would find some way to re-enforce the main webs also. Studs and a girdle of somesort should help susbtantially.

*This has bee a presentation of the KV Opinion Network.*

Except this is a fact, I got into the 9.80's NA, with a stock rodded 'C', 11-1 compression, home ported open chamber heads in a 2800 lb mustang using a camshaft of slightly smaller specs than you are using.

[mustangmatt18]

that's a fast car

you should post more

[Chris]

I see some great Ideas here. I don't have a lot of money to spend so I think I will go with some work on the exhaust ports on my 4V heads.

I also found a great intake test here http://realbig.com/detomaso/1997-07/140.html
Aparantly the Holley Strip Dominator is not in production anymore.
I'll see if I can find a 950cfm carb to test on my car.
I will most likely fill my block for some added safety.
A main stud girdle is also going on my list. Who Makes one for a two bolt Cleveland?
Once I get the heads and intake figured out I will also go with a custom cam to maximize everything.

[Chris]

Just found a main stud girdle a Ford performance Solutions. $195
http://www.f-p-s.com/engine_componen...n_girdles.html

[kid vishus]

The strip dominator has been out of production since '84 I beleive. However, they can still be found with some searching, especially now that the Parker intakes are the 'hot' item to have.

I also think a motor the size of yours could benefit from some bigger tube headers. I would suspect a primary tube of at least 2", and probably 2 1/8", would make it run even better. My little 357 inch motor really needed a bigger header than the 1 7/8" Super Comps I was using.
I know my current headers will be too small for the 402" motor I am going to put in the car, but they will have to do till I get the funds to buy something better. That and I am a little concerned about them not fitting real well since my new motor is a 9.5 deck sportsman block with 4v C heads.

Lastly, I think your cam looks pretty good for your combo. You might not gain much with a cam swap, even to a custom cam. Unless it is ground specifically for nitrous, but then it will seem 'soft' when the motor is not being sprayed.

[All Cleveland]

Originally Posted by davis

I don't know where Raceallday came into the picture, but I'm finding it hard to believe that stock iron 4V heads flow as well (flow volume and flow velocity) as the 2V AFDs. Flow quality can not be measured by volume alone.

With porting, the AFDs will flow a lot more than an iron head, both in volume and velocity. Whether it is worth it to the owner who has to pay the bill, that's another story altogether.

You can look at the flow #'s from his heads if the thread hasn't been deleted. The name of the thread is "ok here they are" and it's on this board. They were flowed buy a guy that has been flowing heads for many years using a superflow 600 (I think that's the name of it). This guy does flow R & D for people like vance and hines and yoshimura so I would think he would know how to use his bench correctly to flow a simple old C head.

[turbo2256]

I know ported my stock 4V heads flowed 330 @ .6 lift also picked up air flow at each lift point below that.

['84 LTD LX]

Originally Posted by Hack

You must not know who you are flaming. 1BAD50 is/was one of the best Ford only engine builders in the NorthEast. He's been building Fords since the early '70s, but I think he stopped building earlier this year. He CNC machined my 302 block for me and balanced my 347 rotating assembly. He also polished a used cam for free after I brought it in for him to check out

Hey 1BAD50, buttoning up the 347 in the LTD this weekend. I got my 'cheater' cam, stock unported GT40Y heads all ready. Then I work on the 357 inch stroker 302 with my cast iron High Ports, Hurricane intake, XE282HR cam, 1 3/4 longtubes, etc, etc....

1BAD50, drop me an email or PM message through my profile (click on my user name) if ya want...

[Kato Engineering]

You mentioned a few posts back about a main stid girdle ,......
for a cleveland, or even anything else for that matter is a waste of money.
that is unless of course it actually goes out to the oil pan bolts area.

[Hack]

Originally Posted by '84 LTD LX

You must not know who you are flaming. 1BAD50 is/was one of the best Ford only engine builders in the NorthEast. He's been building Fords since the early '70s, but I think he stopped building earlier this year.

Sorry about the OT, but..

Sounds like he's been a good friend to you. His post came off different to me. I realize that racing and engine building is a competition people want to win. Therefore of course they don't want to give away their knowledge. And if you're in business you don't want to explain to people how to do something - you want them to be forced to buy from you.

If you don't want to help people, why post? Just to show off is all I can come up with, or try to drum up business. Bottom line what I saw, self serving and arrogant. Not helpful.

Also, if you know the answers explain them clearly and simply. I really dislike BS and complex answers to questions generally are just a way to hide a lack of knowledge. I don't pretend to know much about building Clevelands, so I rarely post. That particular post just bothered me too much and I had to reply.

/OT

[All Cleveland]

Originally Posted by Kato Engineering

You mentioned a few posts back about a main stid girdle ,......
for a cleveland, or even anything else for that matter is a waste of money.
that is unless of course it actually goes out to the oil pan bolts area.

I hate to call your bluff once again Kato but main stud girdles do serve a very good purpose. One purpose is to hold the block together in the event of a catostrofic failure. I know of one instance in particular where a guy had a windsor that broke the block. The guy noticed the oil pressure acting funny and pulled engine. When he took it apart, the only thing holding everything together and saving his stroker crank that cost more than the girdle was the girdle. Girdles also help stop the caps from walking around by tieing them all together and helps prevent one cap from being pushed into the oil pan. Probably helps spread vibrations evenly over the bottom end too. They are definately not worthless junk and are cheap insurance.

['84 LTD LX]

Originally Posted by Hack

Sorry about the OT, but..

Sounds like he's been a good friend to you. His post came off different to me. I realize that racing and engine building is a competition people want to win. Therefore of course they don't want to give away their knowledge. And if you're in business you don't want to explain to people how to do something - you want them to be forced to buy from you.

If you don't want to help people, why post? Just to show off is all I can come up with, or try to drum up business. Bottom line what I saw, self serving and arrogant. Not helpful.

Also, if you know the answers explain them clearly and simply. I really dislike BS and complex answers to questions generally are just a way to hide a lack of knowledge. I don't pretend to know much about building Clevelands, so I rarely post. That particular post just bothered me too much and I had to reply.

/OT

I'm not sure how to respond...a post with just smilies by members with a few posts are usually just trolls...You appear to be the opposite and let me say, Welcome to the Corral.

People help each other on this site, period. The only ones who can sell on this site are paying advertisers, others who try get banned and can not post here. Also, as far as I know, that shop is closed. There is a lengthy thread in the North East forum archives about what happened.

I don't have any 351C stuff, but was researching what a 393C/408C would run with some 4V heads and came across this thread.

I delt with 1BAD50 for about a year or so. I had him do some machine work and balanced my 347. I always pay cash and don't bicker about cost, so local shops like to give me jobber pricing. I have not seen or bought any parts in almost a year from him or that shop. He did send me a one liner email in responce to my post above. "Let me know about the 347." That was it. What I do for work is no way related to cars and/or parts. I tend to buy from Summit Racing now and have the stuff sent to work for the convience factor.

My 357 inch 302 was bought used in Rhode Island from some guy named Art, the used TFS head were from John in Framingham, MA, the used XE282HR cam came from some street racer in upstate NY, the AOD from Karl in New Hampshire and the 3.73 8.8 rear with disc brakes came from a junkyard T-bird. The only new parts are the torque converter, water pump and tiiming chain. My 'other' LTD will be a low 12 second ( or better ) car for about $3000 and be a hell of a sleeper.

Some people like to explain things here in a few words and reference other pages. Because it would take an hour for a poor typest to type a lengthy post.

[Hack]

Originally Posted by '84 LTD LX

I'm not sure how to respond...a post with just smilies by members with a few posts are usually just trolls...You appear to be the opposite and let me say, Welcome to the Corral.

Thank you for the welcome.

I've never built a C, but I have two junkyard Cs in my garage. I hope my first C build will be this winter, doing as much as possible myself, including light porting. So, I'm here to learn - hopefully I won't be a pest in the future.

[jared1970]

Don't waste your money on alloy heads. Call Scott Main at MPG Head Service. He's a Cleveland wizard. His number is (303) 762-8196. He should be able to make those production 4v heads flow like crazy, and help you pick the right parts to make that thing scream. I wouldn't doubt he could get 600 hp, naturally aspirated, on pump gas out of your motor if you've got the money to spend.

[kid vishus]

Originally Posted by jared1970

Don't waste your money on alloy heads. Call Scott Main at MPG Head Service. He's a Cleveland wizard.

I would call anyone BUT him. If you really want those iron heads to flow ridiculous numbers, call one of the real cleveland wizards; either Keith Craft, Jim Kuntz, or Animal Jim Feurer. I'm sure there are a couple of others, but those three are the ones I would trust the most. But I would not call Scott for anything. Plus, I know the first two on that list have built more record holding clevelands than Scott ever dreamed of.
I know way too many people that have been ripped off by Scott, one of which was my uncle. Plus, I have a buddy who lived less than 5 miles from his shop, and he said the stuff Scott did in there to customer's stuff was borderline illegal, and was definately immoral. I have NEVER seen anything he has done that impressed me. And that includes the camshafts he grinds.

I wouldn't buy a glass of water from him if I was die-ing of thirst.

JMHO

FYI, I had a cleveland that made close to or right at 600 hp, and was NA, used stock rods, factory crank, open chamber heads, and was not something I would call streetable.

[Kato Engineering]

you are right,
if you really need a glass of water,

he should just give it to you...


explain how an engine can be made to be "immoral"...

I did n't know that engines have feelings....

I have bought parts from mpg, but not any complete engines or heads....

but I would have to say that a stock Cleveland connecting rod, is hard pressed to make a real 600 h.p...it can do it, but they may not last too long especially if / when the r.p.m. is up past 7200........there are plenty of easier and cheap replacement rods that are stronger and will last longer.

[kid vishus]

Well my stock connecting rods made close to 600 hp for several seasons, and were shifted at 7500 rpm, and never had any problems. Whether you believe it or not makes no difference to me. I know what I have done, and know what works for me and what doesn't. And I know what I have been taught by a fellow that has probably forgotten more about clevelands than 90% of the folks still racing them knows (including me.) In the 12 yrs I've been racing clevelands, I never had one rod failure that was due actually to just the rod failing. It was always proceeded by a spun rod bearing, which I might add, has not happened in over 6 yrs (what can I say, I'm a slow learner.)

I never said the engine was immoral, but I guess you were too busy trying to belittle my post and me, to actually read what I wrote. Being immoral doesn't have anything to do with how the engine 'feels' , but rather how the shop owner screws customers over. That was what the post was really about. Most people that have morals don't condone charging customers for one thing, then giving them something inferior. Or taking their cylinder heads in to 'flow test' them, then trying to give the customer back a different pair of heads. Both things were done to people I know.

If you feel it necassary to give people of that nature your money....hey, it's your money.

[1BAD50]

I'd like to find some o'l full bore pro-stock castings...

and go mix it up with the guy's in street bandit...

that'd be my idea of fun...

[1970coupe]

I like your straight to the point attitude "kid". If you've learned from your past experience and want to try and help someone else from making the same mistake I would like to hear it. I feel that's all you have stated here. We shouldn't take offence to what people post. If you don't like what you read its fine to make a comment about it but then just go on with your day and enjoy all the good stuff we're learning here.

Just my .02 cents, hope you all have a nice day because I know I will!

[davis]

Originally Posted by kid vishus

Plus, I have a buddy who lived less than 5 miles from his shop, and he said the stuff Scott did in there to customer's stuff was borderline illegal, and was definately immoral.

KV, I think that the conversation revolving around your use of immoral is due to your choice of words. You probably mean unethical. Morality is usually associated with having to do with acts of lewdness, like doing the wild thing with your best friend's wife. Lying is also considered immoral by many. It is also generally considered to be unethical, too. Ethics are those practices that are considered to be shady or otherwise inappropriate. Some consider it immoral to engage in unethical practices.

I definitely think that everyone got what you mean from it. However, note that it could be considered slanderous to spread hearsay, which is what you've heard others tell you about someone. While it may be very unlikely that any recourse occurs, it is a practice that is considered to be "immoral" by some, too. If you were a competing business entity, it would be considered unethical. Does that make any sense?

English isn't for everyone and as many as 70% of those (in the world) using it are using it poorly or incorrectly. Forums are what I think a good thing as it brings writing back. Others read what you write and your writing expresses your thoughts, ideas and concepts. Forum writing is largely conversational and spelling errors are easily overlooked. Those criticizing someone for making spelling errors are often ostracized for being too critical on something that is often dismissed as a lack of typing skill or an indifference to being "perfect" or otherwise in a "hurry" for what is failure to proofread their posting for content, clarity and spelling, puncutation and grammatical errors.

A command of the English language is not as easy as being born into it. Neither is any other skill. The mechanic's son is not necessarily a good mechanic. The mathematician's son is not necessarily good at math. When we are familiar with a language, we are in the unique position to easily "just get by" because we can communicate enough to accomplish our basic tasks.

While this is certainly and rapidly approaching the realm of being completely off-topic, you may want to be less critical of others when pointing out how they're being critical of you. Some might view it as the pot calling the kettle black. I read what you wrote and I know that you meant that the shop owner was immoral. However, you probably meant to say that he is unethical. When considering what others say about what you write, you may want to ask yourself if there is a way that you can improve the clarity of your writing so that you write more closely what you mean before responding with:

"I never said the engine was immoral, but I guess you were too busy trying to belittle my post and me, to actually read what I wrote."

Anyone may point out that the comma between me and to is an inappropriate use of the punctuation. A further critical eye might say that the implied "that" between "said" and "the" should be written out. One might continue to look at the usage of the comma between the two independent clauses combined with the coordinating clause conjunction "but." We have another implied "that" between "guess" and "you." There is also the overused adjective "actually" that does nothing to enhance your content. It does (barely) serve only to suggest your distaste for the critique. Of course, anyone reading your response would be able to figure that out without needing the "actually."

I've taken the long way to the point that says if you want people to read what you wrote then write what you mean. Anything less will always be subjected to misinterpretation by others. Alternatively, we can all overlook it as being part of the 70% that don't command the language all that well as we note that this is not an English language critique forum but it is an engine forum where we're not expected to be English majors.

KV...BTW...what happened to your 600 HP stock rodded engine that "never had any problems?" Is that the engine that broke through #2 main? I'm dying to know!

[kid vishus]

Originally Posted by davis

KV, I think that the conversation revolving around... blah blah blah..... it is an engine forum where we're not expected to be English majors.

Thanks for the english lesson Professor.


As for my motor, I never said the motor never had any problems, just that I never had any problems due to the stock rods. Maybe you should have read my comment a little closer. I'm sure the rest of us mere mortal high school graduates understood it.

But since you are dying to know, it broke, and it broke bad. However, it had nothing to do with stock rods, but was due to me racing and going fast on a shoe string budget with parts that most people consider junk. So yes, it blew up. The crank broke. Had it been magnafluxed, more than likely that disaster would have been avoided.

I'm sure now you are going to type some "War and Peace" length response criticizing me for not attending college and having such an extensive grasp of the english language.

Have a nice day.

[Tater]

Just my 2 cents......still running a "stock rodded" Cleve with ARP bolts here for almost 3 years with 1 motor freshen-up.....still the same bearings.... ....shift light set at 7,800 rpm's. Worst problem I've been thru has been the valve spring area as far as wear items. These motors just plain work with the majority of "stock" parts involved. IMO.....

Tater

[Hack]

Originally Posted by davis

hearsay

I don't understand your post, because you misspelled this word.

[Kato Engineering]

......"KID"


I will try to not be immoral.

..or unethical for that matter.

I just have a couple of questions........



..... just how big is this stock rodded, and stock crank engine..?



HUMM...........HMMMM......?

well,
if it made "close to" 600 horse,

and it was 357 inches,

that would mean that it made 1.68 hp/cu.inch...






the rods are considered as having had a failure when the bearing spins....
You have mentioned that you have had spun rod bearings.....

This is because the rod cap has probably elongated from the stretching forces.


I do not feel that there is any wisdom in being able to say that "stock-rods"

were used,....but then saying that ...."the engine ultimatly did fail,..."

why build it to break....?

If a 400 dollar set of replacement rods were used, the engine would probably still be around....

....and the near total loss of everything else in the engine would not have happened...


the dyno has lied to you....
maybe because the water was "thin".

[davis]

Originally Posted by Hack

I don't understand your post, because you misspelled this word.

...not sure what you mean. Hearsay is what I meant. Do you prefer some other spelling of it?