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Quality of a 351c?

9K views 33 replies 10 participants last post by  Hack 
#1 ·
There's a guy selling a 351c locally. It's already rebuilt and converted to a roller. He has all upgraded parts although I'm not sure specifically (I know that will matter some). He's asking 2500.

Is this a good deal or should I have my 1978 351 windsor rebuilt and converted to a roller for around the same price? What is the difference between the 2?

This is going into a 68 fastback.
 
#2 ·
Doesn't seem like a good deal to me. If you invest money and build your own engine you know exactly what was done to it. Buying someone else's engine is more of a gamble. Plus, I get the impression this engine for sale is a fresh build - why is he selling? You don't want to buy someone's mistake.

Having said that, I would rather have a Cleveland than a Windsor for a performance build. Ford designed the Cleveland to be a performance engine. The Windsor was designed for trucks. Not that you can't make a Windsor perform well, of course you can. I just personally like the Cleveland better. I would try to get the price down and buy the Cleveland (inspect as much as possible first), then disassemble it completely and check through everything before running it. If you find more details about all the parts used in the Cleveland build people will be able to tell you a lot more about whether it might be worth a certain dollar amount.
 
#3 ·
Having a lot of experience with the Cleveland, I would want to see inside the engine before I buy. Look at main and rod bearings at the front first then the rear next. The C has a reputation of oiling trouble and part of it is due to roller lifters installed without the proper setup. If he's done this right it will be fine, it would have to have restrictors at a minimum, does it have a high volume oil pump, deep oil pan, solid or hydraulic rollers, also has this been run? I've come across guys that had C's with low oil pressure after a rebuild and sold them to get rid of their problems. Definitely look inside and ask tons of questions, I'll be happy to help with any information about a Cleveland. They are arguably the best performance small block Ford ever produced!! Done right they'll live under the most severe use too.
 
#4 ·
We run 11:30s with a stock cranked stocked headed 351 C. Ask questions but if done right there is no windsor alive that will run with the 351C in stock form. Feel free to ask me questions too. We have 3 of them running in different cars and set ups.
 
#8 ·
I know about the lifter bore bushings and oil gallery restrictors and restrictor pushrods for the 351C.

The fact still remains that it is a poorly designed oil system from the start for an engine that Ford knew would be pushed to extremes performance wise.

Why design the lower performing Windsor with a superior oil system?

(thanks for that Oldsmobile history lesson,had no idea if that's the case)
 
#9 ·
The main reason people think the 351C has a poor oiling system is because the factory made performance heads for it that would allow it to spin and make power beyond 7,000 rpms. 351W (rightfully) always got heads that were all done around 4,500 rpms, so the weaknesses are better disguised.

The 351C lived fine in a racing environment on Nascar tracks - beating the Hemis, big block Chivys and big block Fords.
 
#25 ·
Like my link said - the oiling mods came in when people started making changes (strokers) and running to higher RPMs - doing things that weren't originally intended. With the stock crank running Nascar tracks at 7,000 RPMs walking the Hemis, BBC and BBF competition, no oiling mods were needed.

If you have information about how to run your 351W at 10,000 RPMs I'd be interested. :D

Have you seen any bearing problems with the 429-460 engines?
They have 3" mains and have the same oil system as the 351-C.
No those are also good low-RPM truck motors like the 351W. :p
 
#15 ·
The 351C oiling isn't as bad as a 351W. The 351W 3" main presents a lot of problems over 6000 rpm if not clearanced correctly. With a 351C, not quite as much if an issue although clearnances need to be checked with any performance build. All you need for a typical street motor are the oil restrictors, 7-8 qt pan, and a HV oil pump. I just built one for myself a few months ago and it's running great. Lots of 6500-7000 rpms shifts without a single issue.

Just helped a friend with his bracket car last year, 351C also. Stock rod and main bearing clearances (which I thought he built it too tight) and is still running great after many 7000 rpm shifts. I was surprised because I know for a fact if you tried the same thing with a 351W, the rod comes through the pan usually sooner than later.
 
#18 ·
351C engines have smaller main bearing journals which are easier to oil. When ordering an aftermarket 351W block, you can actually specify to have the 351C mains. The 351C main webs are thicker than a 351W, and are less prone to cracking up towards the cam which 302s and 351Ws are notorious for. I have found out the hard way on both.

The 351C has a wider main cap clamping surface than a 351W. Which means the caps are less prone to 'walking' under high rpms. The 351C was also offered in a 4 bolt main version, and all five caps were 4 bolts, not just 2, 3, and 4 when converting a 351W to a 4 bolt.

351Ws make good dump truck motors, and are only popular because unfortunately Ford discontiued the 351C in 1974 shipping it to Australia and continuing only with the windsor 302 and 351 motor in the US.
 
#21 ·
The 351C oiling the lifters before the mains is not as big an issue as the magazines have made it to be. Despite this being the case, I've still seen a lot more 351W bearing problems than with a 351C, even when the clearances are the same. The 3" main of the 351W creates a problem despite the claims of better oiling design. The 289/302 is a different category as they do not have the large 3" main to create oiling problems.

Then, there are the thin main web castings, and narrow cap width 2 bolt mains which plague all the 289-351 windsor type engines except the super rare Boss 302 blocks.

There is a good reason why the 351C production block was chosen for many race applications (and still is) over the production 351W block.
 
#24 ·
Depending on what parts it has and what was done to it, it could be a good deal for that kind of coin. Get a list of all of it and post it up.

might be cheaper for you to just go with this C than redoing your old W.
 
#27 ·
^^^Hack are you saying the 429 Boss,CJ and SCJ engines are also good low rpm truck motors like the 351W?
Yep all those motors suck and only the Cleveland is good. :)

429 Boss could have been a great race engine but it never went anywhere. I think it's really cool but if I had to pick a winner in a 0-60, 1/4 mile or any corner turning race between two stock 1970 Mustangs I know the 4V Cleveland equipped model would beat the Boss 429.

Also if I were going to pick the best Ford engine at that rough displacement it would be the SOHC FE 427, not the Boss. The Boss strikes me more as a hurried effort to put together something for competing in Nascar after the SOHC was ruled to be way too powerful and Nascar wouldn't allow its use. The Boss is great but doesn't seem to me to be the best - not designed from the ground up and optimized for racing nearly as well. Interesting - the SOHC had smaller mains in it.. :)

Those other motors are great but not in the top tier like 351C and SOHC motors. They are compromised - Ford just slapped some decent parts into the 385 series block they had handy.
 
#30 ·
yes i agree its one of them, some more info not known by many was that the original concept of the 427sohc was for a multi valve setup, this is why the original 427sohc prototype had the same spark plug placement as the smaller 3 valve 302sohc design...




some pics of Fords own 3 valve 302sohc mockup, its 3 valve head design used the 302 tunnel port intake and the 427sohc chain drive...



302 3 valve sohc top left



Ford knew WAY BACK multi valve tech was Superior to any 2 valve stuff for racing...



the multi valve 427Calliope was another trick 427ci of the past...



Its a FACT the 351cleveland block design had issues with oiling at high rpm, another thing many didint know was the cleveland used diffrent lifters than the sbf/windsor, the C used a oil restrictor type lifter. The moroso oil restrictor kit will help, bushings are best fix for C block.

Its a FACT the sbf 351windsor has a better oiling system and is Much more than just a "truck" engine. another thing many dont know was the grand father of the 351W was the 1967 9.250" 351Mirage...

Vintage Ford eng



many dont know this same 9.2" 351xe w block was also used by dyno don and others in aluminum and iron for big hp ...CLEVOR!... type match race engines in prostock...








its too bad the cleveland stuff has stollen some of the lime light away from the mirage/windsor (by those that dont know) as it also has some Great history and pedigree.

Mirage M1


Ford GT40 Restoration - The Motivation
 

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#32 ·
I had a 67 Mustang I road raced that was powered by a "Cleavor", 351 W block with Cleveland heads. Best of both engines and not as heavy as a Cleveland motor. I liked the Clevor so much I built another one in 95 and raced that motor in a NASCAR Cup T-bird vintage stock car. I still have the heads and intake for that one if your interested. $1,000 ready to bolt on your block. Build your own motor with the $2,500 and then some$$$.
 
#33 ·
I had a 67 Mustang I road raced that was powered by a "Cleavor", 351 W block with Cleveland heads. Best of both engines and not as heavy as a Cleveland motor. I liked the Clevor so much I built another one in 95 and raced that motor in a NASCAR Cup T-bird vintage stock car.
besides the boss302/clevor, another interesting Fact many dont know is in 69 Ford had also cast xe Clevor type closed chamber heads for the 302/351w for the 4v w type intakes so Clevor stuff has been around a long time.















i been wondering for a while now if the 2V version of the C head concept was actually first/originaly designed for the sbf/windsor block.

another trick old xe Clevor type head that was ment for the 351 Mirage/Windsor Holman/Moody Honker that has been mistaken for a cleveland head is.

XE-244963 HEAD - Clevelands Forever!

 

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